Ernie – I find your defense of the tories really rather odd.  Why you pretend they have not been moving further and further right and now sit on the far right of european politics I don’t understand.  anti Immigrant, racist, and veering towards fascism

But let’s face it you hate the country you were born in, you don’t understand it, you just see it as some hellhole that is akin to a neo facist state, it’s only bad, there are no redeeming features, you see an opportunity to create some kind of utopia by breaking it up

Laughable really but thats about the level of political discourse I would expect from you – nasty, name calling and vindictive

NO – I hate the political leadership of all parties bar the greens who are chasing each other further and further to the right and who along with the media are poisoning political discourse

I don’t want to break up any country.  I want the end of a union of countries that no longer works for a large part of its citizens. Scotland is being badly damaged by being dragged along with England

AS I have said before I want to live in a social democratic state like the nordic countries and the low countries.  My personal preference is for a federal UK but the only way I can see me getting the sort of governments I like and that would actually serve the needs of the people is scots independence.  I am pragmatic on this not ideological

Presumably Ernie is also fine with the government plans to physically push back the boats of migrants/refugees/asylum seekers, and effectively remove their legal right to try and claim asylum.

Nothing far right about that is there

A suite of new laws proposed by the government would criminalise small boat crossings by making it an offence to enter the UK without official permission.

The Nationality and Borders Bill would also create partial legal immunity for Border Force officials in the event that pushbacks cause migrants to drown.

Oh – and ever rising corruption as well in the tory government and acceptance of this from labour as shown by the promotion of Cooper.  another one who is only in politics to get rich

Final point Ernie – pre brexit the tories sat in the far right grouping in the european parliament along with other far right parties not the centre right grouping where the majority of right wing parties sat.

disabled transsexuals in the Gaza Strip…

Mark Francois couldn’t have said it better.

Yvette Cooper was terrible in the Labour leadership election and chucked all her toys out of the pram when JC won the thing. Unforgivable afaic.

If your point is that it didn’t start with Johnson then I’m right there with you.

So you are claiming that the former Conservative government of Theresa May was a far-right BNP style fascist government, based on a quote from the New Statesman.

Other than that we would not have noticed. In fact according to your New Statesman quote even Theresa May herself hadn’t noticed ;

May, who yesterday denounced Labour as “institutionally racist” at Prime Minister’s Questions, was said by No 10 to have been unaware of her party’s stance

And she in fact ordered them not to support Hungary’s far right government :

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/hungary-viktor-orban-tory-party-uk-conservatives-meps-eu-far-right-a8536706.html

Any other proof that we had a far-right government before Johnson that no one had noticed? Maybe a list of government policies which were identical to Hungary’s far-right government? What were the immigration numbers under Theresa May’s far-right government compared to pre-fascist days?

Btw I will remind you that during Ted Heath’s government, which was the most left-wing Tory government of the last 50 years, there was widespread support in the Tory Party for the white supremacist governments of Rhodesia and South Africa, many Tory MPs unashamedly backed them. It was also during the time of Ted Heath’s leadership that Enoch Powell made his infamous “rivers of blood” speech.

I have never heard of Ted Heath’s government bring described as far-right. Perhaps it is because the New Statesman never got round to writing an article informing people?

But let’s face it you hate the country you were born in

What a strange comment. Like we’re supposed to love the government that rules over us just because of the accident of where you were born? I don’t know abouot TJ, but for the record yes I hate the ‘country’ (or rather the state) I was born into. Over the past couple of centuries that state has murdered millions, pillaged foreign countries, and exploited the people it rules over to feather the nests and egos of the tiny number of people at the top who operate it. Yes every now and again it throws a few scraps to the masses in the form of the NHS and welfare benefits, but only after huge sacrifices have been made by the people to gain them through bitter struggle. The british state is historically, and remains to this day, a hugely malign and evil force which does far more harm to the world than good to further the interests of a tiny number of rich and powerful people. And you want me to like it?

Daz, photographed earlier today on his weekly pilgrimage to Buckingham Palace…

Any other proof that we had a far-right government

I specifically said I don’t think it is/was a far right government but it had tendencies in that direction and uses some of the same tactics/dehumanising language etc – so maybe give up on the particular straw man?

What I said as well Grum but apparently I called the fascist when i actually said veering towards

I’m glad labour are holding them on this, but the effort is a bit cheesey

Last Christmas, millions of people spent Christmas apart in lockdown.

Meanwhile, Boris Johnson held parties in Downing Street.

One rule for them, one rule for everyone else. pic.twitter.com/AF5anETNkE

— The Labour Party (@UKLabour) December 2, 2021

I’m glad labour are holding them on this, but the effort is a bit cheesey

Yikes, try ‘laboured’ (if you’ll excuse the pun).

I think Private Eye liked to hold parties to account for their use of expensive advertising agencies, but a lot of the memes coming out of Labour HQ recently seem a bit strained, it feels like they should be able to come up with better than that ^

It’s awful. Like, do you even meme bro?

Any other proof that we had a far-right government

Would you consider Steve Bannon to be far right Ernie? You know, the one Johnson has met with and kept regular contact with and who claims to have helped write some of Johnson’s speeches?

Or does some whataboutery concerning 1970s Rhodesia somehow negate that also.

Rumours flying round Twatter that Laura Torysberg was there and if she was she then failed to report on it like an actual journalist should have.

so maybe give up on the particular straw man?

And yet you can’t stop yourself going back to it……“I never said the Tories were far-right blah blah……how about this of evidence that they are far-right?”

Make your mind up grum, and when you have decided what you are actually saying try to stick with it.

I’m saying they flirt with the far right. Is your comprehension really that poor or are you being deliberately obtuse. I think I know.

I must get off the internet. Nuance or complexity isn’t welcome here it seems.

Rumours flying round Twatter that Laura Torysberg was there and if she was she then failed to report on it like an actual journalist should have.

Careful, according to some on here you’re not allowed to criticise Laura Kuensberg unless you also say something equally bad about Nick Robinson – otherwise you’re a sexist pig.

If she was there and just somehow ‘forgot to mention it’ including in recent articles about it, she needs sacking. Plainly dishonest.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-59500512

for the record yes I hate the ‘country’ (or rather the state) I was born into

It is an accusation made against the left by both Trump supporters in the US and Daily Mail editorials in the UK.

The claim is of course absurd but it plays well because firstly there will always be a muppet who helps them in providing evidence. And secondly because voters make the not totally unreasonable assumption that people who hate a country aren’t likely to have that country’s best interests at heart.

And secondly because voters make the not totally unreasonable assumption that people who hate a country aren’t likely to have that country’s best interests at heart.

There’s a big difference between country and people. I really don’t have the interests of the british state at heart, because it mostly represents people who don’t need the support of people like me. That Michael Foot quote about the rich looking after themselves is very relevant here. This is why the likes of Starmer and his pro-establishment agenda will never achieve much as long as he isn’t proposing to change the way the state works.

It gets more cringe

🎶 Last Christmas, we all were apart.

🎶 But I’m sorry to say, the Tories didn’t see it that way.

🎶 This year, it’s all become clear.

🎶 There’s one rule for you, and another for them. pic.twitter.com/j9vIZ44RF0

— Anneliese Dodds (@AnnelieseDodds) December 2, 2021

It gets more cringe

Credible opposition. Image what binners would be saying if this was Corbyn et al.

There’s a big difference between country and people.

Well you said, quote : “I hate the ‘country’ (or rather the state) I was born into”, that is fairly clear, most people, quite reasonably, would assume you mean that you hate the UK.

If you didn’t mean that then it is probably best to say what you actually mean.

If you didn’t mean that then it is probably best to say what you actually mean.

I was pretty clear in saying the state. I don’t know why you’re questioning that.

I am not questioning anything.

You challenged my comment with regards to voters making the not totally unreasonable assumption that people who hate a country aren’t likely to have that country’s best interests at heart.

Credible opposition. Image what binners would be saying if this was Corbyn et al

Labours whole communications operation has been absolutely bloody awful for a very long time now. It’s completely incoherent and *dons graphic designers hat* it looks absolutely bloody awful! It looks like it’s been put together by a student. Actually… it probably has

I’d send the whole comms team out with a bottle of scotch and a revolver

Labours whole communications operation has been absolutely bloody awful for a very long time now.

To be fair there is very little to communicate so I can’t see a slick professional operation having much to offer.

Labours whole communications operation has been absolutely bloody awful for a very long time now. It’s completely incoherent and *dons graphic designers hat* it looks absolutely bloody awful! It looks like it’s been put together by a student. Actually… it probably has

Agreed.

There have been some utterly terrible slogans too as well as piss-poor layouts.

The Tories might have some of the most linear design I’ve ever seen but they communicate their message very well.

Labour need a complete PR overhaul, nothing was as effective as their short films in 2017 by that Simon (can’t remember his surname) who unfortunately died quite young.

It gets more cringe

They are wasting their time with this line of attack for something a year old. But yes, it looks like a poster for amateur dramatics latest Holiday singalong.

No one will care.

The problem for any PR appointee is the message they have to communicate:
‘soli-dar-ity with the bourg-eoi-sie’ or something like that.

The british state is historically, and remains to this day, a hugely malign and evil force which does far more harm to the world than good to further the interests of a tiny number of rich and powerful people. And you want me to like it?

Well said. The justification for the British Empire was racial superiority. That Anglo Saxons were a superior race, which allowed all of the invading, killing and exploiting to be presented as ‘civilising’.

That’s what Winston Churchill believed – the person repeatedly voted as the greatest Briton. A white supremacist with a belief in eugenics that was very similar to one of his contemporaries and admirers.

A Churchill who’s the role model of the current UK prime minister. The blatant racism of the past has been replaced by a Farage style, BBC friendly British patriotism that fetishizes the military, monarchy and freemarkets.

But that fundamental bigotry remains – the belief that British people and culture are in some way superior. It’s an ideology that dominates British life and has never been challenged. It’s pushed by the media and is supported by both Tories and Labour.

Labour and Starmer don’t want to challenge it – they want to harness it.

This could be a game changer.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/dec/02/labours-main-union-backer-says-it-will-cut-political-funding?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

This calls for an agile ceremony from the money men. He’s probably embarrassed by connections with the unions anyway.

Game changer?

They’ve been threatening to do that since they thought Neil Kinnock was too right wing

It’s like me threatening to boycott Greggs until they reinstate cheese and chorizo pasties

Never going to happen

copa
Free Member

A Churchill who’s the role model of the current UK prime minister.

Nah. Boris Johnson idolises his fanfic version of Winston Churchill, he doesn’t know much at all about the real one. If he wants to be Churchillian, he doesn’t think about what Churchill would have done, he does what he wants then declares that Churchill would have done the same. Much easier.

Johnson doesn’t have a role model at all.

That’s what Winston Churchill believed – the person repeatedly voted as the greatest Briton.

Only to the historically illiterate, everyone knows it was Athelstan, the first king of England, overlord of all Britain (as of treaties signed in 927)

They’ve been threatening to do that since they thought Neil Kinnock was too right wing

Never going to happen

Eh? How can you not know that Unite has done precisely that?

Only last year Unite cut its affiliation fees to the Labour Party by 10%, back in 2016 they cut their affiliation fees by £1.5 million, according to the newspaper you claim to read :

https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2014/mar/05/unite-cuts-labour-funding

On top of that Unite makes regular one-off donations to Labour Party to help in campaigns, elections, etc. If it wants to, or not if it doesn’t want to.

And it’s not something which the Labour Party in its current dire financial crisis due to falling membership numbers and promised private donations not materialising can easily dismiss as unimportant, although I don’t doubt that they will try to.

Starmer will have do even more to convince the rich and powerful of all the great things he will do for them, if they are to bless him with their generosity. Although his recent promise to fight any possible business tax rises from this current Tory government should go some way in achieving that.

The transformation away from the ‘Labour’ party to the Laminated Tory party is all but complete.

That will reverse the right-wing tirade of the last 40 years for sure.

But yeah they will be competent at it you know.

A functioning opposame is now here. A party for the retail park generation.

Game changer?

Absolutely. A bankrupt labour party is a very good thing. Hopefully they’ll disappear and leave space for another party who might actually try to do something.

Absolutely. A bankrupt labour party is a very good thing. Hopefully they’ll disappear and leave space for another party who might actually try to do something.

Right, so what will actually happen is that the Labour party will struggle on (possibly for years) without Unites’ money or the ability to effectively campaign for anything and will probably splinter into factional smaller parties that have no hope of winning anything in a 2 party system. And even if it creates a space for a different popular left wing party, it’ll take decades to become effective, The UK independence party for instance, perhaps the most successful political party in recent history was founded n 1993. and to be anything like electable will still largely resemble the Labour party as it currently stands. so all you achieve is re-inventing the wheel. Meantime, without any opposition the Tories are in power for decades…

Yey…

Yes, I’m sure that the end of the Union funding for the Labour Party will definitely trigger a sequence of events that would finally deliver to the eager UK populace the socialist utopia they all crave

Any comment to make about the 10% swing to Labour from the Tory’s in yesterday’s by-election?

No?

Yay Tories retain seat. Labour got 6.7K – (In 2019 Labour got 10.8K votes.) Pmsl. Very low turnout tells you no one was lapping up Labour.

Lol at citing a lost byelection when you run your previous logic on the fact that the only thing that matters is a win in a general election.

Westminster voting intention:

CON: 36% (-)
LAB: 33% (-2)
GRN: 9% (+1)
LDEM: 9% (+2)
REFUK: 6%

via @YouGov

— Britain Elects (@BritainElects) December 3, 2021

Nice reshuffle!