As for the class question: To my mind there are the Aristos and those that support them, and then there’s the rest of us. That “the rest of us” can’t agree a course of action amongst ourselves has been to the benefit of Aristos since the early middle ages onwards.

A gross over-simplification of what is a deeply nuanced and complex field. And a pretty crap way of looking at things, if you actually want to understand class in a modern context.

Quibbling that Corbyn is from a less well off bit is well into Angels on pinhead stuff…It’s like saying OK, he’s got a Ferrari, but it’s in one of the stock colours…

Another one misunderstanding the point regarding the ‘Islington Set’ or ‘class’ as one poster put it. This has nothing to do with Corbyn. It was Blair, Mandelson, Al Cambell, Hodge etc, who were the ‘Islington Set’ as labelled by the media and commentators. Which is really quite amusing, to see the Blairites on here referring to the “Islington’ set, without actually understanding what that term means. It refers to the very people whose behaviour created the whole resentment towards metropolitan liberal elites, amongst many ‘working class’ people in other regions. People like Armrest and his current cronies.

Class exists but it no longer a simple 3 layer problem it’s a series of more complex groupings with barriers to entry which help define them. Arguably you can occupy more than one and move in a limited way between them but there are a few which are essentially are only inherited.

Sure. Agree totally.

The lack of clarity makes “class war” meaningless to most. Example, grouse shooting, a self made humble roots businessman buys a grouse moor and joins the shooting and fishing fraternity. He may behave as upper class inherited landowner but he’s not one, he grew up on a council estate, he’ll always be new money.

If you start to use the Marxist definitions good luck with that language on the doorstep

But then you demonstrate clear ignorance of how many on the Left actually view class; Marx was just one figure who wrote on the subject. You could have mentioned Weber, Rousseau or Bourdieu, for example, if you just wanted to reference historical authors. Or the plethora of more modern writers; Guardian favourite Owen Jones has written on the subject, or you might find Mike Savage’s work more relevant to today. The constant stereotyping of lefties as ideological dinosaurs, doesn’t help furnish your own position very well at all. Just makes you look like an out of touch right whinger.

When was the left wing golden era?

Probably the period following WW2, when Socialist policies were the only effective option in helping rebuild Britain; formation of the NHS and Welfare State, social house building, nationalised industries etc. But perhaps a bit less ‘left wing’ as some would like to frame it, and just what the country needed at that time.

Quibbling that Corbyn is from a less well off bit is well into Engels on pinhead stuff…

Fixed it.

Anyway, you can be from any class background and left wing, or right wing, or like most people favour a nuanced mix of polices from all over the political spectrum… class does not define most people’s politics. Any party intent on governing needs support from across the many complicated class structures we have in the UK.

It’s getting there

Full MRP Result:

CON: 311 (-54), 37%
LAB: 244, (+41), 33%
SNP: 59* (+11), 5%
LDM: 12 (+1), 12%
PLC: 5 (+1), 1%
GRN: 1 (=), 8%
RFM: 0 (=), 4%

*That's EVERY Scottish seat for the SNP.
Hung Parliament, CON 15 short.

Via @ElectCalculus & @FindoutnowUK, 6-8 Sep.
Changes w/ GE2019. pic.twitter.com/0MG2DHfIsa

— Election Maps UK (@ElectionMapsUK) September 13, 2021

Will England ever have more than one Green MP?

I fully expected the slide for the Conservatives to begin this month, and increase over the winter, as decisions about the pandemic and Brexit being to really bite. I expected them to be further ahead in August though. Not sure Starmer can get credit for the lower peak for Johnson this summer, or the inevitable fall on the way now… unless staying out of the way is a plan rather than a huge shortcoming (I think the later, to be clear).

Any party intent on governing needs support from across the many complicated class structures we have in the UK.

No shit, Sherlock…

So; how is Armrest going to achieve that? Expel a few more Jews, perhaps?

It’s getting there

It’s getting where?

It’s getting where?

Rebuilding from 2019

In spite or because of Starmer is a fair point
I’d hope for a decent set of policies to come out of the conference.

These sorts of discussions rarely come down to some-one tells outright lies, mostly (IME) it’s people either deliberately “mishearing, or misunderstanding” or inferring or interpreting something different. It’s how politicians work, no-one says anything without making sure it can be read or understood any number of ways

Oh, sure: the language will have been calculated so that a denial could be issued if necessary.

But one of them is lying.

You’d think that Comrade McClusky might be due a period of quiet reflection, given his starring role in 3 consecutive election defeats, but no.

True to rent-a-gobshite form, and obviously feeling the need to fulfil his remaining contractual obligations to Tory central office as leftie pantomime villain, here he goes again with his ‘everybody look at me’ routine

Perfect timing (for the Tory press) as the conference approaches, but as he’s a book to flog (good luck with that, Len) and those afternoons in the Ivy and shopping trips to Selfridges aren’t going to pay for themselves

Bit bored today, Comrade?

My bet is that Starmer agreed to the deal then got told ‘the Jewish community’ aka right wing Israeli lobby groups wouldn’t accept anything less than JC being crucified (pun intended), so went back on it.

contractual obligations to Tory central office as leftie pantomime villain

Starmer has provided him with some wonderful material hasn’t he.

Getting there

https://twitter.com/PoliticsForAlI/status/1437714928207548416?s=19

I’ve never bought the Sun but don’t need to with our impotent outraged hater on here. Alongside Savage etc I’d recommend a look at Richard Wilkinson and Danny Dorling on the consequences of class inequality. But maybe it’s just easier to spout off than to find out NB Alf Garnet was a parody you know.

But then you demonstrate clear ignorance of how many on the Left actually view class; Marx was just one figure who wrote on the subject.

And the one mentioned in the previous post hence the reference.

And for TJ

TJ you are correct someone without photo ID can provide evidence sufficient to demonstrate the right to work. My simplification of the rules was incorrect. In some cases the only way to prove the right to work is via Biometric documents or a correctly stamped passport but clearly not all. You also correctly identify that a large number of the people who have a right to vote don’t have a form of photo ID.

Will England ever have more than one Green MP?

I think the Greens in England need to step back from the ideological “back to the fields” and some of the other more outlandish policies and gain a few personalities from the media, science, etc and they probably could find other seats.

But in reality they would be better off targeting local authorities and mayoral elections, the Westminster election is too brutal

Getting there

It’s small steps towards making the country a better place to work, dressed up in a family focused way. All very basic… but… could be seen as the foundations of a rebuild.

Proper sick pay for all seems like a no brainer given the last two years, pleased to see that one mentioned. Do we think the Tories will nick that one? They should do. More people understand/feel why that matters now.

Bit bored today, Comrade?

I don’t think it’s boredom that is the cause of binners inane rantings on the Starmer thread, it’s the desperate need to steer the thread away from Starmer.

Generally it’s some nonsensical drivel about Corbyn which he uses as a diversionary tactic, eg “Corbyn is more pro-Brexit than Nigel Farage”, he knows nonsense like that will get a reaction precisely because it’s nonsense, and it results in everyone not talking about Starmer but about Corbyn.

Of course he could continue his hate campaign against Corbyn on the thread dedicated to Corbyn but that would be like shouting at people driving past in their cars, and perhaps he already does that.

Obviously today he’s decided to aim his hatred at McCluskey, which provides a bit of rare variety from binners.

The sooner McCluskey is forgotten, the better.

That was my point

Given his innate narcissism and incessant need to gob off in the media, I doubt we’ll ever be granted that particular wish. Much to the delight of the Tory’s

Will England ever have more than one Green MP?

England will always be a green and pleasant land.

Except for the North with its dark Satanic Mills.

Thank you for that admission Big and Daft.

NEW: Keir Starmer’s TUC speech:

Labour would:

• Minimum wage at least £10 an hour
• Greater role for unions
• Increase sick pay
• Ban zero hours contracts

If thats the content of his conference speech and actual policy commitment then that sounds pretty good to me. We’ve waited long enough for some actual policy, but given the last 18 months that all seems particularly pertinent

You’d think that Comrade McClusky might be due a period of quiet reflection, given his starring role in 3 consecutive election defeats, but no.

If you honestly think that McCluskey is a significant factor in the polling booth, I suggest you take more water with it.

Given his innate narcissism

In fairness, you are exceptionally well-qualified to make that judgement.

Ooooooooo… hark at ‘er

Except for the North with its dark Satanic Mills.

Most of the mills are long gone, I remember when the last big one in the valley closed and then quickly demolished.

England’s mid grey industrial estates doesn’t quite have the same ring

Thank you for that admission Big and Daft

It’s not so much an admission as a statement of fact. The reality in job hunting world is that if you don’t present photo ID you don’t get interviewed, any job that has a driving requirement will expect to see your driving licence.

“Corbyn is more pro-Brexit than Nigel Farage”

I would argue that he was. Fromage never wanted Brexit, he was on an easy winner spouting off nonsense while doing nothing and getting a big fat pay check to do it. If we hadn’t Brexited he would still be there being the gobshite he is milking the system.

Corbyn on the other hand has been an arch Brexiteer his whole life. The only reason he “backed” remain is because they party members were mostly pro EU. Fromage was so transparent he could have been a window. Corbyn on the other hand was just lying.

I’ve just seen this from last nights Newsnight. Where does this fit in with the narrative of Starmer supposedly abandoning the policy commitments made by the messiah?

"We are in favour of common ownership absolutely… Starmer said this in the leadership campaign – we haven't changed that commitment."

– Shadow business secretary Ed Miliband on Labour supporting public ownership of energy, water and transport.@Ed_Miliband | #Newsnight pic.twitter.com/aBMHqjEXu6

— BBC Newsnight (@BBCNewsnight) September 13, 2021

Corbyn on the other hand has been an arch Brexiteer his whole life.

Which of course is why he committed the Labour Party to a policy of a second referendum, and the possibility of overturning the first one.

The reason Farage didn’t want a second referendum was because, according to you, Farage never wanted to the UK to leave the EU.

And you threw the accusation of “gobshite”? Strewth

He had to be dragged kicking and screaming to do so. He did not want to do that. He hoped it would win him the election then he could negotiate his own Unicorn version of Brexit. It was nonsense and no one believed him.

Fromage just shouts what he wanted people to hear. How can you not see that?

Why straight to the insults?

Where was that Ed Miliband back in 2015?! He’d have got my vote. Mind you, I’ve said that quite often since he took on his current role.

Why straight to the insults?

Welcome to the thread. If you insult Farage or Johnson, you have to accept that Ernie will attack you in a similar manner. Brexit blood is stronger than friendly forum discussion water.

Farage is an outright racist who fervently hatred the EU

corbyn took a nuanced position and overall in favour of remaining. the PLP was also badly split with numerous factions from the lexiteers to the “pander to the racists” to the “whats best for me” to the committed europeans.

Jeepers

Farage is an outright racist who fervently hatred the EU

Probably, but he did/does have a German wife.
He was also clever enough to know he was on to an easy thing. Raked in the money while doing very little mostly just spouting his lies and hate.

Corbyn tried and failed to bridge the divide between remain and leave factions in the Labour party and offer compromise, which ended up pleasing no one. The idea there was any magic solution like just backing remain and sod those who disagree is laughable. Why are we still talking about this though?

Re the policy announcements, it’s a reasonable start, not sure why it’s taken so long to get here though. Via disastrous misses like his tepid support for increased pay for nurses.

If you insult Farage or Johnson, you have to accept that Ernie will attack you in a similar manner. Brexit blood is stronger than friendly forum discussion water.

Jeezus, just when I thought I couldn’t hear anything more puerile you come out childish taunting like that Kelvin.

Probably best to take a short break from this thread in the vague hope that some people might grow up.

I don’t think it’s boredom that is the cause of binners inane rantings on the Starmer thread, it’s the desperate need to steer the thread away from Starmer.

Generally it’s some nonsensical drivel about Corbyn which he uses as a diversionary tactic, eg “Corbyn is more pro-Brexit than Nigel Farage”, he knows nonsense like that will get a reaction precisely because it’s nonsense, and it results in everyone not talking about Starmer but about Corbyn.

Of course he could continue his hate campaign against Corbyn on the thread dedicated to Corbyn but that would be like shouting at people driving past in their cars, and perhaps he already does that.

Lol! I imagine Binners like this:

It’s worse than that, I’m afraid.

I actually throw my shoes at clouds to protest about rain

just when I thought I couldn’t hear anything more puerile

Some people are just so lovely that you want to hug them.

I actually throw my shoes at clouds to protest about rain

We all yell at clouds here from time to time, don’t we? The Simpsons’ thing makes sense if you live in California, where the clouds aren’t often out to ruin your day.

Back to…

Most of the “papers” have reported on Starmer’s little speech about proposed changes to benefit workers, and the pre speech briefings about taxation falling more on property owners and those whose income comes from capital, quite fairly. They seem to have let him set the bullet points for them, which is nice, and rarely the case for Labour these days. The Telegraph are an obvious exception…

“In hamming up his ‘working class’ roots, Starmer sounds like any other guilt-ridden, middle-class Leftist”

Being conscious of the needs of those in a different position to you is “guilt”… say those with no experience of having an active conscience. And the middle-class are the enemy of course… not like good old salt of the earth Johnson, or his ex and future colleagues at the Telegraph.

Probably best to take a short break from this thread in the vague hope that some people might grow up.

somehow I doubt the growing up will happen. It is however not worth being fully involved with this thread – so much nonsense posted. I only dip in and out.

I actually throw my shoes at clouds to protest about rain

Daily in Ramsbottom

The shoes are actually wellies

I’ve just seen this from last nights Newsnight. Where does this fit in with the narrative of Starmer supposedly abandoning the policy commitments made by the messiah?

Gosh, it’s almost as though you ignored Starmer going on record to distance himself from his commitments. But hey, let’s not let facts interfere with your beliefs.