Should I forgive the SNP?

So it’s a yes! (But not in the sense you wanted) 😉

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/03/im-not-sure-if-snp-believe-what-theyre-saying-you-certainly-shouldnt

Funnily enough the “red Tories” and the SNPs track record in introducing private provision of healthcare would make the real Tories blush.

You tried this argument before, and it was rubbish that time too – there isn’t any privatisation of the health service in Scotland, no private companies have been invited to provide healthcare provision, unlike south of the border. Private companies provide some services to NHS Scotland – catering, stuff like that. And of course hiring of locums and things like that too.

Re Nicola Sturgeon’s hair, for anyone well read in the classics…

Once seen, it cannot be unseen

Odd then that the health secretary felt compelled to write

“I have been very clear with all NHS health boards that I expect them to take every action possible to ensure that the private sector is only used in exceptional circumstances.

Suppress the truth!!

Odd then that the health secretary felt compelled to write

“I have been very clear with all NHS health boards that I expect them to take every action possible to ensure that the private sector is only used in exceptional circumstances.

Er, yes, exactly. The use of private companies by NHS Scotland is being minimised as much as possible, and again there’s a fundamental difference:

There are no private companies taking over healthcare provision from the NHS in Scotland.

Well good luck with both sides of that story Ben!

At least the minimise argument is closer to reality than the first one. Progress in one regard. 😉

New thread same old misrepresentation from the same old media sources.Daily Fail etc seem happy to stir up anti Scottish feeling. The Snp have not as yet won anything but have said they won’t support the tories but will support labour in a supply and confidence arrangement not a coalition government. So there will not be Snp ministers in a UK government.
Athgray whilst I think the Snp have got some things wrong your forgiveness is not required. The Snp obviously are at heart nationalist however you could vote for them at this election as a new referendum is not on the agenda now.So which is more important your unionism or your support for social justice and an alternative to austerity? edit

Ben Cooper:

“The answer to this is surprisingly simple…”

As are you. Are you seriously suggesting that the huge increase in food bank use is because of landfill tax? Nothing to do with many more people needing their help? Oh, and foodbanks often don’t get the food drect from supermarkets, and it’s not usually surplus food – it’s bought and donated by the public.

Ben, as you appear to be quite happy to brand others Simple, perhaps you can tell us how “simple” someone has to be to brand others simple whilst themselves being apparently incapable of checking the facts for themselves first?

Home

http://www.j-sainsbury.co.uk/responsibility/case-studies/archive/food-donation-at-sainsburys/

or maybe Tesco, one of the Trussel Trust’s biggest donators?

http://foodcollection.tesco.com/surplus-food-distribution/#who-benefits

or waitrose?

http://thirdforcenews.org.uk/tfn-news/blogs/trussell-trust-and-waitrose-in-foodbank-drive

6 months ago the SNP held these people in disregard

I genuinely don’t see how this makes any sense.

Ben, as you appear to be quite happy to brand others Simple, perhaps you can tell us how “simple” someone has to be to brand others simple whilst themselves being apparently incapable of checking the facts for themselves first?

See that word “often” I used? I’m well aware of those schemes, but at least with the foodbanks I’m aware of here in Glasgow the majority of donations aren’t surplus supermarket food.

But even if they were, are you seriously claiming that the huge increase in foodbank use is supply-driven not demand-led?

See that word “often” I used? I’m well aware of those schemes, but at least with the foodbanks I’m aware of here in Glasgow the majority of donations aren’t surplus supermarket food.

That’s not what you wrote though is it?

It’s pretty lame trying to wriggle out of having branded someone “simple” by subsequently saying you were only basing your understanding on only Glasgow when the original discussion was about the national doubling of foodbanks.

So do you now accept that a significant volume of the food given out by foodbanks is donated by retailers in order to avoid food waste / landfill and that with a significant increase in the volume of food donated it’s hardly surprising that many more people can be fed “free” as a result?

This is a classic supply side issue albeit one that has been conveniently overlooked in the interests of lazy political point scoring.

Jebus, are youse going to descend this into tedious point scoring, fact is food bank usage is through the roof under the tories. It’s inconsequencial where the food is coming from.

Unless you are claiming that as some form of windfall of capitalism? 😆

It is the failure of the larger parties to represent the interests of a decent slice of the electorate that has led to this particular shakeup. In particular Labour for abandoning its Scottish core support.

I can’t see either of the big two commanding an overall majority for some time, so in a way it would be better to have more parties than fewer and form broader more stable coalitions.

TBH there is so little policy difference between the Tories and Labour that they should consider going into power together. The only divisions between them now are fabricated to offer the electorate the illusion of a choice.

with a significant increase in the volume of food donated it’s hardly surprising that many more people can be fed “free” as a result?

Regionally you need to be referred by the JC and have been assessed as in dire need – usually means sanctioned and without money on order to access the free food.

The supply of food has not increased the demand as you seem to be implying.

Supermarkets may well be tryign to avoid tax but if the foodbanks had no “customers” [ as we appear to be using the language of the market] the banks woudl be saying no thanks we have no poor or needy or hungry people.

As the posters notes the reality ius that under this coalition the number of folk using food banks has increased rapidly. Of all the causes for this Ithink blaming the supermarkets for supplying food is amongst the least likely reasons. Not even the Tories have tried to claim that as a cause of food poverty.

Jebus, are youse going to descend this into tedious point scoring, fact is food bank usage is through the roof under the tories. It’s inconsequencial where the food is coming from.

seosamh77, are you unable to understand the very simple points (supported by facts and data) that food bank usage:

– rose throughout the last Labour government as well as under the current one?
– is a by product of additional costs incurred by retailers in disposing of food?
-reflects that it’s cheaper for shops to take unsold food to distribution centres run by the likes of the Trussell Trust rather than paying to have it dumped in a hole in a ground?

It’s absolutely NOT inconsequential where the food is coming from when the increase in free food is used as de-facto proof that the country is starving to death /it’s all the fault of the current government.

If vodafone or EE started giving out completely free phones, is the collective opinion that demand would remain unchanged?

just5minutes – Member
seosamh77, are you unable to understand the very simple points (supported by facts and data) that food bank usage:

– rose throughout the last Labour government as well as under the current one?
– is a by product of additional costs incurred by retailers in disposing of food?
-reflects that it’s cheaper for shops to take unsold food to distribution centres run by the likes of the Trussell Trust rather than paying to have it dumped in a hole in a ground?

It’s absolutely NOT inconsequential where the food is coming from when the increase in free food is used as de-facto proof that the country is starving to death /it’s all the fault of the current government.

If vodafone or EE started giving out completely free phones, is the collective opinion that demand would remain unchanged?

😆

I’m blaming the tories and labour!

I’m loving how you are equating food bank usage as an altruistic consequencial of supermarkets tax breaks, carry on, that doesn’t sound ridiculous in the slightest.. 😆

Listening to some of this, makes a comment in today’s FT debate seem pretty astute

The SNP is selling the snake-oil of victimhood

Quite.

Bizarrest explanation for food bank growth ever.

As I said not even the Tories would try this

Genuinely not sure if serious but it is funny

teamhurtmore – Member
Listening to some of this, makes a comment in today’s FT debate seem pretty astute

The SNP is selling the snake-oil of victimhood
Quite.I’m far from an SNP supporter, actually, I’m quite against them tbh, but that’s nonsense. The SNP rise is a direct consequence of a disconnect in Scotland from westminster policies.

The fact that the SNP is able to gain such support, with essentially the same political outlook and a few free give aways, tells you the story.

Add in to that that England can’t decide whether to go with the tories or labour either (along with the rise of UKIP)tells you that things are hunky dory in England either.

Your are Tories correct patter is nonsense as usual and most of the voting public disagree..

Our local church operates a food bank:

(i) It was opened during this government.
(ii) It was opened because the church wanted to do something for the community and the Trussell trust model makes this very easy.
(iii) Many of its users (and there are very few) go to it because it is more convenient than the one in the next borough.
(iv) All the local churches can provide vouchers so there is a greater supply of vouchers.

Personally I wouldn’t draw any conclusions from this at all, their growth is due to a wide range of factors from:

(i) Significant benefits changes;
(ii) More efficient use of excess food – due to some well run charities with good “business” models;
(iii) More supply of vouchers – the Tories claim Job Centres were not allowed to refer people to Food Banks under Labour; etc etc.

There is a reason we have official statistics to measure poverty etc., the problem is these do not provide particularly good evidence to attack the government. Hence the use of a statistic which is more startling but not particularly well correlated to the argument made.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/mar/29/three-new-tribes-of-voters-will-dominate-this-election

Arguing that the increase in food bank use is supply led seems pretty dubious to me. The Trussell Trust’s report last year concluded that half of all of their users were either waiting for benefits to be paid, had received benefits sanctions, or had been pushed into poverty by the bedroom tax and changes in tax credits. But what do they know?

“for between half and two thirds of the users from whom additional data was collected, the immediate trigger for food bank use was linked to problems with benefits (including waiting for benefits to be paid, sanctions, problems with ESA) or missing tax credits”

(sanctions use has gone through the roof, benefits delays are common, and the crisis loans are now harder to access and much less frequently granted. Trussell also identified the bedroom tax as a trigger for food poverty crisis)

Or how about DEFRA, whose 2014 Household Food Security report says

“There is no systematic evidence on the impact of increased supply and hypotheses of its potential effects are not based on robust evidence.’

to which their researchers added

’There is no evidence to support the claim that increased food aid provision is driving demand. All available evidence, both in the UK and internationally, points in the opposite direction. Put simply, there is more need and informal food aid providers are trying to help.’

But what do they know?

http://www.trusselltrust.org/resources/documents/foodbank/6323_Below_the_Breadline_web.pdf

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/283072/household-food-security-uk-executive-summary-140219.pdf

*aren’t hunky dory

One happy coincidence of the SNP surge,as well as folks up here voting for a party that is more interested in ordinary people than the others,is just how much they piss off THM,Jambalaya and the (as yet absent)Zulu. SNP,SNP,SNP; cue frothing Tory. I don’t get the hatred as exposed in any thread that involves anything at all to do with the SNP. You know,lots of MP’s on a socialist ticket? Should fit right in with anybody who gives a poo about their fellow citizens.

I’m far from an SNP supporter, actually, I’m quite against them tbh, but that’s nonsense. The SNP rise is a direct consequence of a disconnect in Scotland from westminster policies.

Indeed, and as stated in the independence thread, I am in favour of devolved power within a union (best for all concerned IME). But it has to be done correctly and not on the basis of fluff (more polite than the 3Bs). As the BoD showed many/most policies simply do not hold up to basic scrutiny (ditto many protest parties) and hence the snake-oil analogy is a fitting one. And then the basic hypocricy involved is breathtaking. The Deputy, sorry leader’s comments over the weekend re the Union were particularly disingenuous given what the SNP stands for. Sadly people are easily fooled….more oil, sir?

Should fit right in with anybody who gives a poo about their fellow citizens.

indeed, but that requires joined up thinking not fluff

THM, defender of the union!

Indeed! 😆

many/most policies simply do not hold up to basic scrutiny

Like the tories refusing to say where they will make the £12 billion cuts in the welfare budget as requested by the IFS? That sort of thing?
FWIW your analysis is broadly correct but for every party;there is nothing special about the SNP in this respect.
Every party and every politicians says things they do not mean to win votes
CMD on election debates before he was PM, the greenest govt ever, immigration .. no ifs no buts etc.

None of these lies/snake oil/3 b’s get the same visceral reaction from you or others for some reason.
Its really not hard to pick a party and prove hypocrisy. Its also not difficult to just hurl abuse at party just because you dislike their core values.

Nortwind has it, it’s probably a pumpkin shell on her head.
Thanks for clearing that up 😆

.

It’s pretty lame trying to wriggle out of having branded someone “simple” by subsequently saying you were only basing your understanding on only Glasgow when the original discussion was about the national doubling of foodbanks.

Oooh, ooh, does that mean we now have the concept of a Glasgow Defence, as well as an Edinburgh Defence?

Oooh, ooh, does that mean we now have the concept of a Glasgow Defence, as well as an Edinburgh Defence?

Dunno about that but we certainly have the Trollface Attack…. i.e. based on nothing other than shite.

seosamh77, defender of the free Scottish dream.

I reckon this is probably more me, want to see it all burn for the laughs! 😆

Joe, that’s clever to get Sturgeon’s face in the flames?

Mind your trousers though as they look like the only thing to go up in flames

want to see it all burn for the laughs

Nice, nikes and a molotov. Typical pro-Indy POV, wanting it both ways.

😆

Is that oranges they have been pelting the police with in that pic? 😀

duckman – Member

Is that oranges they have been pelting the police with in that pic

that wouldn’t happen in scotland