Shimano XT brakes on an Orange 5

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  • Shimano XT brakes on an Orange 5
  • Highland28
    Member

    You will probably want a bleed kit Sewell for re bleeding the rear brake after threading it through the swing arm. I Lehigh discs is it that you have got with your hopes? Are the floating rotors? You have to watch the thickness oddities as they vary between brands but you should be ok. Might be worth giving them a clean up before putting the new brakes on though.
    Finally, I am pretty sure my dad used an old straightened coat hanger to help thread the new brake hose through the frame, as there isn’t a sleeve for it to follow.

    Premier Icon jam bo
    Subscriber

    when you remove the old hose, either attach some string to pull through the swingarm or attach the new hose and pull it through.

    Premier Icon mattjg
    Subscriber

    Double check the rotors cover the pad area completely using your adapters (assuming you’re not running 160mm rotors on post mount both ends – unlikely on a 5 I suspect). If they don’t get Shimano adapters.

    I had XTs with an Avid adapter, this put the calliper too far away from the axle, leaving an area of the pads at the top unworn. Eventually these met, with the rotor spinning away in the work area beneath … and all of a sudden I wasn’t getting much braking power!

    Premier Icon iainc
    Subscriber

    a bit of a footer to get the hose in, but good advice above and lots on here if you search.

    It has always surprised me that Orange stick with Hope brakes and Raceface chainsets on the 5’s rather than just going Shimano which is generally preferred and I’d have thought could be had cheaper for bulk purchases.

    I had an 08 one and the brakes and chainset were first things I changed, within months

    popmatik
    Member

    Thanks guys.

    So I’m a bit of a dunce on these things. Do I have adaptors already attaching my hopes to the bike? So it’s making sure that the pad is all over the rotor when I fit them, if not go with a shimano adapator which will make sure it covers?

    Premier Icon mattjg
    Subscriber

    Probably. If there’s an adapter, it’ll be between the calliper and the frame or fork.

    You’ll need an adapter for your XTs unless your rotors are 160mm in diameter and the mounting is “post mount” not “I.S.”.

    Yes.

    See http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/if-my-worn-xt-brake-pads re my pad wear issue.

    popmatik
    Member

    Yeah I agree iainc. To be honest I blamed the hopes being bad on pads for ages… then I tried these XTs and had a chat with some folk in the bike shop and they really put me off my hopes. To the point where I think i’m unsafe with em!

    popmatik
    Member

    Hello folks.

    I’m looking to replace my Hope Tech X2’s on my 2010 Orange Five with some Shimano XTs. I tried some on a bike the other day and they blew me away.

    When you buy the brakes they come with the lever, cables and callipers. I was wondering if there is anything else I would need to buy in order to fit them to the Orange? I already have rotors from my existing brakes. Would they do the job with these new brakes?

    Also if anyone has any tips for replacing the brakes on and Orange…possible pitfalls like losing the cable in the bike I’d love to hear them!

    Cheers

    popmatik
    Member

    Thanks Matt that’s great. My rotors are 160mm i believe. I’ll check out the mounts that are on there, but I may be best just getting shimano mounts so I don’t end up with a wear issue.

    Whilst I’m doing all this should I up the rotors to 180mm or is that daft as I only weigh 10 stone?

    Superficial
    Member

    If you use the same rotors and the same adaptors, you’ll be fine. Just swap the callipers. I’d go 180mm front and 160mm rear, personally, but whether you notice the difference or not I don’t know.

    I had XTs with an Avid adapter, this put the calliper too far away from the axle, leaving an area of the pads at the top unworn. Eventually these met, with the rotor spinning away in the work area beneath … and all of a sudden I wasn’t getting much braking power!

    The issue is usually something to do with Shimano using metric (180mm) and SRAM / Avid using different (imperial?) measurement and ending up with slightly bigger 185mm rotors. That 5mm caused the problems you describe. I think now Avid have fallen in line and they just use 180mm across the range.

    Premier Icon mattjg
    Subscriber

    Trail bikes often come with 180mm in the front and 160mm on the rear.

    But if you’re happily riding 160mm front in the UK there’s probably no need to change.

    If you’re off to the Alps or somewhere with long descents where the rotor is going to get really hot, put a 180mm on the front – the larger surface area dissipates heat more quickly.

    180mm will also give you more ‘power’ because the calliper is further from the axle so has more leverage, but at the expense of some modulation. Do you need more power on the front? (probably not).

    Premier Icon mikewsmith
    Subscriber

    then I tried these XTs and had a chat with some folk in the bike shop and they really put me off my hopes. To the point where I think i’m unsafe with em!

    If they are that dangerous you should probably send them to me so they can be disposed of so nobody gets hurt

    popmatik
    Member

    Thanks guys.

    So Superficial… you reckon I’ll be reet with my current adaptors and rotors?

    I probably won’t need more power to be honest as my current brakes are so bad I don’t tend to brake! If I do brake with the new ones and have too much power I’ll probably go over my bars!

    Superficial
    Member

    you reckon I’ll be reet with my current adaptors and rotors?

    Yes, I do. But I wouldn’t stake my SingleTrackWorld reputation* on it. I’m 95% sure you won’t need anything extra but there’s always the chance that something weird will happen and the callipers will foul the adaptors or something. The only real way to check is to suck it and see.

    Also, as Mattjg say, this:

    Double check the rotors cover the pad area completely

    (*I’m not under any illusion that I actually have any forum reputation to speak of)

    Premier Icon roverpig
    Subscriber

    Yeah I agree iainc. To be honest I blamed the hopes being bad on pads for ages… then I tried these XTs and had a chat with some folk in the bike shop and they really put me off my hopes. To the point where I think i’m unsafe with em!

    Unsafe ? Really ? Bear in mind the number of people riding around quite happily using Hope brakes. If they were unsafe don’t you think we’d know about it? Fair enough if you prefer the feel of Shimano brakes. That’s just personal preference. But there is nothing wrong (and certainly nothing unsafe) with Hope brakes.

    Superficial
    Member

    But there is nothing wrong (and certainly nothing unsafe) with Hope brakes.

    I’d go as far as saying that all hydro disc brakes are absolutely fine out of the box – until the point comes when they stop functioning adequately. And from what I hear, the wrongness occurring with Hopes is more frequent than with other brands.

    I don’t think any brand has yet perfected the brake that continues to work year on year without some sort of hassle.

    popmatik
    Member

    Yeah sorry… unsafe was probably a bit over the top. They aren’t very good at stopping me dead though… I feel that I have to hope to do that.

    Superficial excellent use of the asterisk for your own terms and conditions 🙂 I’ll go with the suck it and see approach. Now then… black or silver… 🙂

    Premier Icon mattjg
    Subscriber

    If you think your Hope brakes are unsafe get them fixed, I wouldn’t trust the LBS, send them to Hope.

    Have they been bled? If not, do that before you shell out for the XTs.

    Hope make good brakes in my experience. I have no experience of a properly installed and maintained Hope being unsafe. If they are, Hope will want to know about it.

    Premier Icon mattjg
    Subscriber

    a chat with some folk in the bike shop and they really put me off my hopes. To the point where I think i’m unsafe with em!

    Yowser what did they say?

    Do they mean with your brakes specifically, or with the model or brand in general.

    popmatik
    Member

    Yeah I bled them thinking that would sort them out. Also changed the pads across various brands and bedded them in with all the standard fly down a hill and lock on techniques. To be honest fella I’d love the work better… i think they are a really nice looking thing. But for they have never had the stopping power that all my mate riders have with their brakes.

    Just looking over a few reviews it does seem that stopping power is low on their list with the x2’s?

    http://www.bikeradar.com/gear/category/components/disc-brake-systems/product/review-hope-tech-x2-11-37522

    Premier Icon mattjg
    Subscriber

    OK – could be the seals need changing. I had some Hopes that needed that, neither of the 2 LBSs I took them to diagnosed it, they just screwed about with the positioning and told me it was fixed. I DIM’d in the end, and ceased expecting competence from LBSs in the meantime.

    Seal change is no big deal and is standard maintenance. You can DIY or send them to Hope.

    As for XTs vs X2s – I ride both, both stop me fine.

    Premier Icon mattjg
    Subscriber

    ^^ good links Mike.

    popmatik
    Member

    Mattjg… It was about hope brakes in general.

    Honestly i’d love to love the Hope’s and get them working with bite but I really don’t feel that with them. I’d happily stick with them if I could get them stopping me rather than fading me to a stop. Do you know what I mean?

    Premier Icon mattjg
    Subscriber

    For sure – ride whatever gives you confidence of course.

    Premier Icon mikewsmith
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    Give Hope a call, see what they say

    Premier Icon leftyboy
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    I think Orange go with Hope because they are British, work well and have excellent back up from the factory so very much in line with the way Orange operate.

    My X2 Hope’s have been faultless and stop my immense weight OK so I’m happy to stick with them.

    My previous XTs were equally as good but when the piston’s got sloppy they couldn’t be repaired so that put me off buying another set.

    popmatik
    Member

    But do you think it might be mechanical fault, me not bleeding them correctly that may have caused the issue?

    What i’m getting at is how do you x2’s feel to you. Can you grab the lever and stop dead flat?

    Maybe it’s worth an email to their customer support for some advice. I really want to love the brakes…

    Premier Icon mattjg
    Subscriber

    My previous XTs were equally as good but when the piston’s got sloppy they couldn’t be repaired so that put me off buying another set.

    How long did this take?

    (Is it right that basically XTs are disposable in the sense that no maintenance is possible other than pad change and bleeds?)

    Premier Icon mikewsmith
    Subscriber

    (Is it right that basically XTs are disposable in the sense that no maintenance is possible other than pad change and bleeds?)

    The only thing you can change is the fluid, pads and hoses. The caliper & lever are non serviceable parts.

    The hope deal for strip & rebuild will return them to new. If there is a fault they might do it for nowt. I dropped into their support tent at the mega and came out with amazing feeling brakes on some very old Ti6/M4 combo

    Premier Icon roverpig
    Subscriber

    I’ve got X2 Race and have ridden a few bikes with Shimano XT brakes. I can lock either wheel with one finger with the Hopes (183 front and 160 rear), which is all the power I need. The Shimano brakes were great too. I prefer the modulation of the Hopes (slightly less chance of throwing me off if I grab them in a panic) and the spares availability. But it’s a subtle difference and I can see why some folk prefer the more immediate power of the XTs.

    Premier Icon mattjg
    Subscriber

    Can you grab the lever and stop dead flat?

    No, I don’t need to. Stop dead flat means the bike is stationary and you are airborne.

    My XTs are sharper than my X2s, yes. I also like the Servowave feature, I think it’s useful for typical UK conditions (ie mud).

    But my X2s have all the power I need just the same. Once a wheel’s skidding, more ‘stopping power’ makes no difference.

    Premier Icon Northwind
    Subscriber

    Get the Hopes working right. Not everyone likes the feel, some folks prefer the less subtle Shimano lever feel as it can feel more powerful. But Hope don’t make a bad brake these days, at worst you’ll make them fit for sale but more likely you’ll find when they work right, they do you fine. I wouldn’t buy a set myself, but, you already have ’em.

    leftyboy – Member

    I think Orange go with Hope because they are British, work well and have excellent back up from the factory so very much in line with the way Orange operate.

    Nah, it’s the perceived value thing (if you doubt it, ask why they fit Avid, obviously not because they’re british, they work well and have excellent backup from the factory 😉 ) Lots of logo management in Orange full builds, Pro 2s with maxles to snap the axles, and cheap cassettes that gouge them, bolted to Mavic 317s which are too skinny and not that strong but have a yellow oval on them…

    popmatik
    Member

    Yeah stop dead might have been over the top. I was getting at the feeling of bite.

    I just don’t want to throw money at trying to get more bite into the brake if it’s just not achievable. Now I’m in two minds.

    Premier Icon mattjg
    Subscriber

    It’s perfectly achievable to get your X2s working nicely. A seal/piston change is reasonable after 2-3 years use, certainly. You can do it yourself very cheaply or send them to Hope. They quoted me about 90 quid to overhaul my set of Tech X2s

    Will you be satisfied with them compared to a new set of Shimanos? Nobody else can answer that.

    popmatik
    Member

    Thanks Matt.

    I’ve emailed Hope to see what can be done. I’ll let you everyone know how it goes as if it gets sorted i don’t want to have talked badly about a brand due to my own repairing skills!

    Premier Icon righog
    Subscriber

    XT’s and X2’s are both great brake sets. I prefer the X2’s but there is not much in it.

    I find with all the brakes I have had their braking efficiency drops with time and use. Be this due to pad wear, rotor contamination, seal degradation or they need bleeding. It’s also fairly hard to get that new feel back. If you then go and try a new bike with new brakes it gets you feeling that your current brakes are pants.

    My advice would be to get the Hope’s serviced and replace rotors and pads at the same time.

    mrmonkfinger
    Member

    +1 for getting the hopes working. At the very least that’s a decent resale value to recoup the cost of XTs. Or you might find the hopes are fine with nice seals, a bleed, adjustment, and are working all nice again.

    On a slight tangent, I always read “a lot of bite” to read “on or off, with little modulation” – it doesn’t actually tell much about outright power.

    Be this due to pad wear, rotor contamination, seal degradation or they need bleeding. It’s also fairly hard to get that new feel back

    Unless you do a full service and, say, repace the pads, the calliper and lever seals, clean the rotor, and refill with fresh fluid?

    Premier Icon mikewsmith
    Subscriber

    On a slight tangent, I always read “a lot of bite” to read “on or off, with little modulation” – it doesn’t actually tell much about outright power.

    Yep when I run up and down the street on the missus bike the SLX’s have lots of power/bite (she likes them) but it’s very all or nothing. My hopes have progression and feel. Locking wheels is not required/useful most of the time. I can if I need/want to but thats not that often

    Premier Icon mattjg
    Subscriber

    “on or off, with little modulation”

    I don’t find my XTs lack modulation, they just need a lighter touch than my Hopes.

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