Shimano cup and cone conundrum, including I hate cup and cone content

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  • Shimano cup and cone conundrum, including I hate cup and cone content
  • IHN
    Member

    After the issues with my seized rear wheel, I’ took a look at it today.

    As someone suggested might be the problem, the driveside cone, the one that’s supposed to be fixed and never move, had come away from it’s lockring and moved, and in so doing eventually tightened right onto the bearings and caused the wheel to seize. So, I tightened it back up again against the lockring on the end of the axle, giving it a good bit of oomph and a healthy dose of loctite for good measure. Then everything, including the freehub, got taken off/apart, a good clean, regrease and reassembly.

    And so the inevitable fun began. I hate cup and cone bearings, it’s such a faff getting them to the right point of ‘wheel running nicely whilst enough load on bearings so nothing wobbles’. Anyway, in this case it has been impossible; there’s no way I can get the wheel turning smoothly without there still being significant movement at the rim.

    I’ve checked the surfaces of the cups and cones and they’re fine. I’ve double checked everything is back on the axle in the right order. Is it just a case of trying new balls? Or is there something else I should be looking at?

    It’s an XT, M775 rear hub, FWIW.

    Premier Icon Bez
    Subscriber

    I love cup and cone bearings 🙂

    There’s a bit of a knack to it. I use two spanners on the cones and one on a locknut at the same time. Get one of the cones tight against its locknut, then get the other one into place; you can have a tiny bit of play at this point. Arrange the cone spanners so that you can get your fingers on both at the same time through the spokes, then hold them steady while you tighten the second locknut; but don’t muller it.

    Test the axle again; if it’s a tiny bit tight then you can use just the cone spanners to back off slightly and it’ll tighten against the locknut. It may take a couple of tweaks: a few degrees on the cone spanner is enough to make a difference to the bearing. Remember that once you fit the wheel and tighten the skewer the axle compresses slightly, and while you can easily feel the slightest play in an installed wheel it’s much harder to detect a slightly tight bearing, so always err on the side of loose when adjusting.

    Just takes a little practice and patience to get the feel, but once you’ve got the knack it takes no time at all.

    I assume you checked the cones for pitting, and the balls for corrosion or fractures…? Both fairly easy to spot, but they’ll both have an effect. Though to be honest unless it’s extraordinarily bad you should still be able to keep an apparently knackered cup and cone hub running quite adequately for years.

    The one thing that will scupper it is a bent axle. You should be able to spot that by looking down it, or feel it when inserting the skewer.

    fossy
    Member

    With cup cone, you set them so there is a tine amount of play with the wheel out of the frame. Upon tightening the QR, this takes the play out. You may have some damage though, with would prevent that.

    Premier Icon DezB
    Subscriber

    No point in em. Sealed bearings last yonks without any faff.
    Especially Mavic, last longer than you want to keep the wheels.

    Premier Icon Bez
    Subscriber

    Sealed bearings last yonks without any faff.

    A valid statement which covers both sealed cartridge bearings and sealed cup-and-cone bearings 😉

    trail_rat
    Member

    Especially Mavic, last longer than you want to keep the wheels.

    Sounds about right. As 5 minutes is about too long for Mavic factory wheels to be on my bike.

    IHN
    Member

    Thanks all.

    I assume you checked the cones for pitting, and the balls for corrosion or fractures…?

    Cones (and cups) checked and fine. Balls not checked (phnaar phnaar) in any detail, but seemed fine. Didn’t check the axle, but pretty sure it’s fine. Will double check.

    With cup cone, you set them so there is a tine amount of play with the wheel out of the frame. Upon tightening the QR, this takes the play out.

    Yup, I’m doing that. However, whenever I do it so there is no play when the QR has been tightened, there is obvious rotational resistance, and the freehub becomes stiff.

    So, just been doing some Googling whilst eating my breakfast and in this Shimano pdf…

    https://si.shimano.com/pdfs/si/SI-4DA0B-001-ENG.pdf

    …there is an inset box on the right about freehub removal, with a note saying “do not disassemble this seal”. I disassembled (and reassembled) that seal. My guess is that maybe it’s now not seated quite right, so when the cones are done up tight enough so there’s no play in the bearings, the seal on the cones is rubbing on that freehub seal, causing the resistance.

    I assume that another strip down, clean and careful reassemble of that freehub seal may sort it? Or have I foobarred the freehub by removing the seal?

    I hate cup and cone bearings. I had a perfectly good spare set of Hope XC wheels that I sold to Stoner last summer, gah!

    Hob Nob
    Member

    Or is there something else I should be looking at?

    Yep, a decent set of wheels with proper bearings 🙂

    Premier Icon Bez
    Subscriber

    Hmm. Seems plausible. Been a while since I dismantled one of those, though, so I won’t offer any advice 🙂

    I’d give it a go, anyway. Sounds like maybe something’s not been reassembled properly, whatever it is.

    Premier Icon DezB
    Subscriber

    5 minutes is about too long for Mavic factory wheels to be on my bike.

    Ha ha! Yeah stupid idea to have decent wheels that last for yonks. Only an idiot would want that.

    Premier Icon Daffy
    Subscriber

    IF everything is setup perfectly and the wheels are in continuous use, cup and cone are fine and can be rebuilt almost anywhere in the world.

    But, if water finds its way past the seals (and it does), and the wheels aren’t moving enough to displace the water, the cups will corrode and pit and cannot be repaired.

    2 sets of Shimano XTR hubs and one set of Deore XT with the same results on both within 2 years.

    On the other hand, in 17 years of biking, I’ve never, ever replaced a Chris king bearing and once they’ve worn in (~6 months), no adjustment is required. My oldest set is coming up on 15 years old and is still on the same bearings. I must have had 50+ hubs in that time (still have 17) and have NEVER had to replace anything except a seal that I damaged.

    liamvc96
    Member

    Surprised scotroutes has not been in yet telling you what an incompetent mechanic you are and that cup and cone bearings are the best things since sliced bread

    Buy dt swiss and forget about them soon after installing

    trail_rat
    Member

    Yonks would not be my word choice for many high end Mavic factory wheels

    Premier Icon Bez
    Subscriber

    Bearings: one of those things where if you ask for practical advice on whatever you’ve got, you’ll mostly get a queue of people telling you that what they’ve got is better 🙂

    scotroutes
    Member

    Surprised scotroutes has not been in yet telling you what an incompetent mechanic you are and that cup and cone bearings are the best things since sliced bread

    No need. The message is obviously sinking in.

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