Shamima Begum – trafficked, or terrorist?

But we’ll done for mentioning brexit anyway, I feel it was what was missing from this thread – every thread discussing contentious issues should deviate away from the subject and blame brexit.

But that’s OK, because “for balance” we’ll always have you leaping up to defend it and tell us that other causal factors may be available.

we’ll always have you leaping up to defend it

And yet that is exactly what I don’t bother doing – I get incessantly criticized for not doing so.

The same here on this thread. I have pointed out that Shamima Begum being stripped of her citizenship has bugger all to do with brexit, it happened when the UK was still in the EU, citizenship deprivation has been happening for years, and currently happens in several EU member states.

I have no desire to ‘leap to defend brexit’ or discuss the pros and cons of EU membership. It has **** all to do with the subject matter.

And congratulations for missing the point completely Ernie. Perhaps the sarcasm in my post was a bit too nuanced?

Yeah far too subtle for me. I hadn’t realised that you were being sarcastic and pointing out that Shamima Begum’s case had nothing to do with brexit.

But in how many of those cases did the person being stripped of citizenship NOT have dual citizenship?  My understanding is that under international law it is illegal to leave a person stateless as the U.K. shamim a

^^^ This.

My understanding is that under international law it is illegal to leave a person stateless as the U.K. shamim a

It is, unfortunately it has been upheld by the Supreme Court as they claimed that she had the right of Bangladeshi citizenship. That might have been the case but she hasn’t now, she would have needed to apply before she was 21 years old.

Yeah far too subtle for me. I hadn’t realised that you were being sarcastic and pointing out that Shamima Begum’s case had nothing to do with brexit.

her case doesn’t (obviously?) – but I think the governments response does, particularly from a government/party/supporter base that was so frustrated at not being able to extradite Abu Hamza, and who have been leaning heavily on blatantly populist themes throughout the leave campaign.  To admit that they can’t just disown begum because it would violate international law probably brought them all out in hives, and would probably be quite confronting for their supporter base.  I thought that was pretty clear from my post, but maybe not.

Do I think she should have her citizenship re-instated and let straight back in? No

So this above, completely and utterly contradicts your other point below

Do I think she should come to the UK and face trial? For what?

Why was her citizen ship removed? Because she committed some crimes against the UK as a UK citizen.
If you accept that removal of citizen ship is an appropriate response to the crimes she committed, you first have to try her for those crimes, as a brit, and innocent until proven guilty, that means bringing here home and trying her.
You can’t have one without the other.

As an aside:
Removal of citizen ship is a barbaric act which should never happen, it only happened because she is “not the right colour and not from here.” (My quotes because some people cannot seem to get over this.)  Which is in fact bollocks, she was born here and has natural rights here. Imagine if they did this to Sarah Smith born in Barnsley???

It’s you that’s bringing skin colour into it. Why are people always banging on about ‘brown people’ on this forum lately. It’s bloody embarrassing.

Maybe in a few years when we’re at war with Russia, if Sally Smith from Barnsley leaves for Moscow to marry a captain in the Russian army then she can have her citizenship revoked too. Assuming she’s dual nationality Bangladeshi too so she’s not left stateless.

Isn’t her husband Dutch anyway? Would it not be easier to get into Holland?

Isn’t her husband Dutch anyway? Would it not be easier to get into Holland?

What a daft comment. She is British, it should be easy for her to get into the UK.

Her husband is held captive by Kurdish forces btw.

And if you think she wouldn’t be treated differently if she had white skin and an Anglo-Saxon name you must be living in fantasy land.

Aye right, but she left for Islamic State. Is it the UK’s fault that that didn’t pan out as mad lols (who knew?).

If I left the UK to become a Thai but got bored of the humidity and happy endings and decided I wanted to be British again I’d have to apply at immigration or do what everyone else does and jump on a dingy. Why all the drama?

I really don’t think an Anglo Saxon name would make a difference btw. Class maybe.

An actual white woman islamic terrorist.  sold her story to the sun.  Seems to still have her UK citizenship

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samantha_Lewthwaite

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sally-Anne_Jones

Both irrelevant as a: they’re both British as opposed to dual nationality so couldn’t have their citizenship revoked anyway. And b: one’s hiding in Kenya and doesn’t want to come back and the other is dead.

But top marks for attempting to make everything about racism.

If I left the UK to become a Thai but got bored of the humidity and happy endings and decided I wanted to be British again

I don’t know what you are talking about. She has only ever been British. Going abroad doesn’t automatically mean that you lose your nationality.

as opposed to dual nationality

Have you not read anything about this case? She does not have dual nationality and never has had. She could have applied for Bangladeshi nationality but she didn’t. Why should she – she is British, having Bangladeshi nationality would have made no sense.

Furthermore her right to Bangladeshi nationality expired when she became 21 years old, Bangladesh has publicly stated that she won’t be allowed Bangladeshi nationality.

She does not have dual nationality and the UK has made her stateless. A disgusting and shameful act which you would not expect from a civilised country.

Britian says that a 15 year old has no right to make legal decisions, and yet the British state can strip a 15 year old child of her citizenship if they feel that she has made the wrong decision.

But top marks for attempting to make everything about racism.

Slow hand clap for pretending that this tragic case has nothing to do with racism and bigotry.

Wot Ernie said!

Its obvious racism and islamophobia designed to play well in the right wing press and the tory party faithful

Its obvious racism and islamophobia designed to play well in the right wing press and the tory party faithful

I’ve not seen you all tirelessly campaigning for her return, which is surprising as you’re all so seemingly disgusted by her circumstances. It’s not new news

It’s equally the usual left wing jizz fest to jump on a virtuous bandwagon now it’s been rattled around in the press again. Isn’t it?

I’m pretty sure the majority opinion in this thread is for her tonreturn and face whatever charges the crown sees fit, but don’t let that get in your way. 🙂

I’ve not seen you all tirelessly campaigning for her return, which is surprising as you’re all so seemingly disgusted by her circumstances. It’s not new news

Because of course you are always out tirelessly campaigning for all those issues which you express  strongly held veiws on here?

Although unless you follow TJ around I can’t imagine how you would know what he does and doesn’t do.

Because of course you are always out tirelessly campaigning for all those issues which you express strongly held veiws on here?

Although unless you follow TJ around I can’t imagine how you would know what he does and doesn’t do

Ok strawman….

What strongly held views do I express on here that I should be campaigning for to further my cause? It’s mostly cynicism if you care to properly observe my interjections

I said ‘all’, it just happened to be Jeremy’s post that I quoted

It’s mostly cynicism if you care to properly observe my interjections

Fair point. I probably don’t properly observe your “interjections”. I pick up drivel like this :

It’s equally the usual left wing jizz fest to jump on a virtuous bandwagon now it’s been rattled around in the press again. Isn’t it?

by simply scanning your posts, I don’t feel they are really worthy of much more than that.

The need to insult does suggest a strong view about something but I am happy to accept that strong views might be a tad too profound for you 👍

It’s equally the usual left wing jizz fest to jump on a virtuous bandwagon now it’s been rattled around in the press again. Isn’t it?

egh?  How is it “left wing” to want a member of a terrorist group to return to the uk to be tried and (if appropriate) prosecuted?  That’s practically what every poster here is saying – and seems completely fair/logical.

Or is it now “left wing” to want the UK to comply with international law now? Or give somebody a trial before punishment is dispensed?

So what do you think of the case?

was the government right to remove her British citizenship without any kind of due process?

where do you sit on the “trafficked or terrorist” issue?

I think it’s pretty widely accepted amongst the majority here that

1) she shouldn’t have been made stateless

And

2) if there is a case to answer she should be allowed to return and undergo due process. If there isn’t then the question is moot.

Sure, she made shit choices and she may not be likeable as a person for whatever reason you choose. But you can’t choose who justice applies to on that, or any basis. Because once you do it’s a dark road ahead.

I don’t understand why this needs pointing out.

“this place is an echo-chamber” in 5, 4, 3……

by simply scanning your posts, I don’t feel they are really worthy of much more than that.

Yet here you are engaging. You feel that you can challenge what I say with contempt, yet merely scan because my opinions aren’t worthy?

Sounds about right

The need to insult does suggest a strong view about something but I am happy to accept that strong views might be a tad too profound for you 👍

So calling out a left wing virtue signalling huddle because a long standing human rights issue has all of a sudden become topical again is insulting, but screaming racist at any other opinion is just fine and dandy? Of course it is, it’s STW

JFC.

calling out a left wing virtue signalling

You keep banging on about this being a left-wing issue and whilst I fully accept that justice is an issue which tends to preoccupy left-wingers it is not as clear cut as you make it out to be .

David Davis is a very senior Tory who is firmly on the right-wing of the Tory Party. This is what he has had to say on the issue:

“Disappointing verdict in the Supreme Court. Regardless of what individuals like Shamima Begum have done, the UK cannot simply wash our hands of Brits in the Syrian camps. The correct approach would be to return them to the UK to answer for their crimes.”

https://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/news/hull-east-yorkshire-news/david-davis-wades-shamima-begum-5052911

Every one of Enrielynch posts on this page have taken the words right out of my mouth. 100% agree.

You keep banging on about this being a left-wing issue

Primarily because this is a lefty hand wringing echo chamber*…….

And this is where the current discussion is happening

*There you go, just for you batfink 😉

Ahhhhhh I see.

Because you think STW is full of lefttards, whatever the majority view is here, that then automatically becomes your new definition of left wing?  Regardless of what is actually said?

and because we are saying things that meet your new definition of left wing, it further reinforces your opinion that we are all “left wing”?

He’s got us skewered!  How could we possibly hope to compete with such a towering intellect!

This thread was a one sided political shouting match way before I got involved

There wasn’t much shouting going on before you joined… self reflection not a strong point is it?

before I got involved

It is hard to fathom what your contribution to this thread is, beyond a general attack on what you perceive to be the left.

As someone who occasionally goes against the STW consensus I generally keep my wick dry for those times when I feel that I have an actual point to make, and of which I feel quite strongly about.

According to you, you don’t feel strongly about anything , despite wading onto this thread to have a general pop at everyone. You also don’t seem to have any idea what point you are trying to make, as your constant contradictions show.

You appear not to think that Shamima Begum has committed any crimes, as this comment by you suggests:

Do I think she should come to the UK and face trial? For what?

So you don’t appear to know what crimes she might have committed and yet according to you she shouldn’t be allowed back into the country of her birth.

Have you any concept of how ridiculous that is?

But you can’t choose who justice applies to on that, or any basis. Because once you do it’s a dark road ahead

Removing rights from one person who “deserved it” removes them from everyone – including yourself.

Hurrah, I got the quote thing to work!

I find I’m a stinking hypocrite on this subject. On one hand I have no issues with UK members of ISIS catching a high explosive munition or two whilst their going about their psychotic business.

Having seen their handiwork up close and the brutality of their ideology, morally I can settle that with my conscience.

But, when they decide being part of a murderous death cult isn’t for them, or they’ve surrended like the cowards they are, them I’m all for legal process being applied without fear or favour.

I’m also with a few posters here, might seem okay to remove certain rights from people because in that moment it’s universally agreed they’re wrong un’s, but who knows when that tide turns and the same exception in law is applied to others deemed problematic.

The decision to render her stateless was for political expediency. Not national security or justice.

It’s a **** trick and one that elected officials should not have the power to do in isolation.

In no way a hypocrite there – yes, when they are an active threat to life, they face the full consequences, but when they step back from that, the normal rule of law applies..

Given your experiences, I find your attitude honest, self-aware and just.

I find I’m a stinking hypocrite on this subject.

I think that’s probably how most people feel about it tbh.

That’s the thing with principles innit – you don’t get to pick and choose when to apply them

Furthermore her right to Bangladeshi nationality expired when she became 21 years old, Bangladesh has publicly stated that she won’t be allowed Bangladeshi nationality.

Given that she had a legal right to Bangladeshi citizenship they should we not all be ranting at Bangladesh for not following international law and accepting her right to citizenship or is it ok for them not to want her?

Given that she had a legal right to Bangladeshi citizenship they should we not all be ranting at Bangladesh for not following international law and accepting her right to citizenship or is it ok for them not to want her?

Bangladesh may also be acting like ****, but at the time of the offences where it is alleged she commited offences under the terrorism act, she was a UK citizen. So it’s not unreasonable to expect that she would be subject to the legal process of this nation.

If I’m honest I couldn’t give two shits about Bangladesh amd what they chose to do. As a nation their legal system and processes have no bearing on my life unless i choose to visit. I care more about how we prevent nutjobs going off to murder or support the murder of people and how we appropriately and legally deal with those who return.