Shamima Begum – trafficked, or terrorist?

And a pair of pre teens were convicted of torturing and killing a small boy.

Utterly disgusting that they were.  Pure abuse of the legal process.  England is one of the very few countries in the world they would have been.

Not that that has anything to do with Begum

just a reminder, that a 15 year old ‘made that decision’. Maybe younger, she was 15 when she went IIRC.

… after they’d been grooming her for two years prior, no?

Not that that has anything to do with Begum

Maybe there is a similarity in that it was ‘political’. Assume you’re talking about the Liverpool case. Then to treat those two boys any differently would’ve had the public howling, like bringing Shamima back.

Anyway, even if they hadn’t been paraded like in a medievel circus the end result would’ve been the same: banged up in a secure unit for years followed by lifetime monitoring.

Shamima Begum

I think she should be forced to face UK justice.

Obviously tried as a child.

What crime do you think she committed?  I don’t see what UK crime could have been committed.

She is a victim in all this and now a political football used for the tories to score points.  More victimisation

I believe that joining ISIS was/is a crime under UK law.

Although I am very happy to be corrected.

I’m firmly in the tried as a child in the country of her birth camp. If she was middle class and white she’d be back before now.

Beyond my legal knowledge but I am fairly sure that you cannot be tried in the UK for a crime committed outside the UK so she would have had to join a proscribed organisation while in the UK – a bit of a stretch IMO

Edit – Lord Haw haw was tried and executed.  Dunno if that was under UK law tho

Didn’t she break the law by traveling internationally under 16 without parental consent?

A pretty petty crime Merak if it is one.

“I am fairly sure that you cannot be tried in the UK for a crime committed outside the UK”

This should cover it:

https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/terrorism-guidance-relation-prosecution-individuals-involved-terrorism-overseas

I’ve always thought she was a political football and is being kicked by the state.  The BBC podcast is reconfirming my thoughts towards this.

But I agree with the idea of reinstating her citizenship, it’s a disgrace that the government even considered this let alone enacted it, and then put her on trial for whatever crime they believe she has committed.

I think in years to come this will be looked back on with horror that the state can do this to a child.

I think in years to come this will be looked back on with horror that the state can do this to a child.

I hope that this awful series of events becomes a lesson in how to do things in a proper spirit of justice and fairness.

If anyone has a bridge in London they’d like to sell me…

I’m not going to enter the debate about crime or not; punishment or not etc; however, I watched that programme last night and the single most distasteful thing I observed was the moment the ‘interviewer’ (ITN possibly but could be wrong) was conducting an interview (live???) with her and read out the letter about the removal of citizenship. No matter anything else, that was, IMHO, shameful.

Ta Ernie.

Do you mean this fazzini?

Yeah that vid  ^ is dickish behaviour. She’s a kid ffs, regardless what she’s done a little human decency is in order

took the news better than I would tbf…

Yeh – that’s the one @ernielynch – tbh i was half asleep but that moment stuck with me as being plain wrong regardless of circumstance

The reality in all this is that she is brown and has a funny sounding name. If she was white anglo saxon and called Sarah Smith she’d be back home with a book deal, hitting the chat circuit, doing I’m a celeb, and probs be a judge on strictlycomexfactorden.

Haw Haw was US born and an informer for the Brits in Ireland and then legged it to Germany.

I think in years to come this will be looked back on with horror that the state can do this to a child.

I think we’ve been seeing this for centuries, from children being hanged for petty cases of theft, to lifetime deportation, to ignoring testimony of sexual abuse at the hands or the clergy or in council run care homes.

I think we’ve been seeing this for centuries, from children being hanged for petty cases of theft, to lifetime deportation, to ignoring testimony of sexual abuse at the hands or the clergy or in council run care homes.

Its this barbaric old testament attitude that people are somehow not “people” when they do something bad. Othering.
Scary.

Sort of, the above have been aimed a number of children.

In this case the state turned on a single citizen and removed their rights, it’s got reactionary tory bollocks written all over it, playing to the daily mail crowd.  And that’s what’s most disturbing, this government will gladly destroy a life to shore up its base.

^This pretty much, she was a minor was she not when she ‘did the thing’?

Also highly likley there was coercion/grooming involved.

My all means try her under UK law, but removing citizenship in such a fringe case with so many question marks around it, stinks of making an example out of her to appease a certain audience, rather than real justice.

I’m not going to express an opinion as to whether she was trafficked or left of her own will to join ISIS – as I simply don’t know

Do I think she should have her citizenship re-instated and let straight back in? No

Do I think she should be left to rot in a Syrian refugee camp? No

Do I think she should come to the UK and face trial? For what?

Maybe a sensible course of action would be extraction to a neutral country for a pychological assessment to determine whether she has been influenced by ISIS. She could no doubt seek asylum in said safe country and continue her quest to return to the UK following asessment.

Any return to the UK on any grounds, she would likely be granted asylum in any case. There would no doubt be a hugely expensive legal aid funded court case to regain citizenship, that she would likely win. Maybe the Times could fund this (seeing as she’s now their poster girl) in the inevitable case that she will ultimately be allowed to return at some point?

*Obviously I have a contentious question to pose. She left to ‘join ISIS’ 6 months before her 16th birthday, when she was nothing but a child who couldn’t possibly have made that decision sensibly and of her own free will. So how many of you (considering you are mostly hardcore Labour supporters), support the proposal to allow circa 1.5 million 16/17 year olds the right to vote in the election of this country’s next government?

You can join the Army in this country at 16, I’m sure some 15.5 yr olds are at that age considering it. It’s not unreasonable to believe that Shamima was possibly considering joining ISIS forces of her own free will

You can join the Army in this country at 16

Which requires parental consent.

Maybe listen to the podcast and read about her case a bit before spending that much time typing?

Sounds like she was groomed.  I’d let the courts decide her fate as a citizen of this country that she is, the dual nationality is a red herring.

I’d let the courts decide her fate as a citizen of this country that she is, the dual nationality is a red herring.

Might not even get to that. It might get to the be that the CPS find there is no case for her to answer or no realistic chance of a successful prosecution.

Doesn’t mean she won’t be on a watchlist for the the rest of her life mind. But she might not be in jail and she’ll be back with family so that’s a plus.

A **** debacle is what it is. Yet another example to the world that we have elected **** clowns as leaders.

Doesn’t mean she won’t be on a watchlist for the the rest of her life mind

To be fair, we don’t particularly have a very good track record of ‘watching’ individuals that are known to be a potential terrorist threat

I believe that joining ISIS was/is a crime under UK law.

Which law would that be?

Although I am very happy to be corrected.

Well, there’s no such thing as “UK Law” for a start off.

@relapsed_mandalorian agree, I’m not sure what charges could be brought against her, but she needs a path to be heard and have her name cleared in the court of public opinion, because the government have othered her to such an extent I fear it wouldn’t be safe for her to return at present.

I suspect a change of government will be required and an apology made. The concern here is that the nut jobs would still see her as a threat. Really Johnson would need to apologise, but considering his character that’s not going to happen.  Christ he kept Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe locked up longer due to his ineptitude so I can’t see him actually doing the right thing ever.

Which law would that be?

Uk laws covering  the prosecution of individuals involved in terrorism overseas.  I posted a link earlier that you apparently missed:

https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/terrorism-guidance-relation-prosecution-individuals-involved-terrorism-overseas

It is published by the Crown Prosecution Service.

ISIS is classed as a terrorist organisation in the UK.

I assume it would be joining a prescribed organisation, sits under the Terrorism Act. That’s as much as I could be arsed to Google at this time. What sort of sentence that carries who knows, but yeah, let the system do its work and what falls out, falls out.

I think the govt knew which way it would go so they did what they did to chalk it up as a win.

“To be fair, we don’t particularly have a very good track record of ‘watching’ individuals that are known to be a potential terrorist threat”

That’s not Begum’s fault.

let the system do its work and what falls out, falls out.

my thoughts exactly. If she’s committed a crime put her on trial in the uk. Is she hasn’t then there is no justification for not letting her back into the uk.

I know a bloke who only did 8 years for kicking someone to death. He’s been deemed ‘rehabilitated’ and given a second chance by society, yet this lass has been found guilty without trial with no second chances forthcoming

but then again he’s not brown..

The idea that Shamima Begum is a potential terrorist is ludicrous.

She is no more likely of being a terrorist than millions of other UK residents.

I don’t know why it is even being suggested.

I don’t think she is. She either, by choice or coercion went off and got involved with a terrorist organisation.

Doesn’t make her a terrorist, but she appears to have committed an offence in doing so.

Until such a time the govt stop **** about and let the legal processes run their course unimpeded, we’ll never know.

Although I imagine she wouldn’t get a moments peace if she came back. The patriots would harass the shit out of her.

I think it’s all to do with this guy…… and the B word (sorry)

I think the Tories (and their base) were so incensed about their inability to “get rid” of this bloke – what what we have with Begum is a determination to show that the UK, with it’s newly returned sovereignty, and having now taken back control for those unelected beurocrats in brussels, can now successfully eject a terrorist from our shores without having to worry about pesky like things human rights etc

I kind of put it in the same category as JRM wanting to return to imperial measurements – it’s a rather desperate and ham-fisted attempt to try to show the boomers that Britain is no longer constrained by Europe/the ICC/ EU human rights directive etc etc.  WE CAN EAT AS MANY BENDY BANANAS AS WE LIKE!  “Can’t make somebody stateless?!?!  Says who? – we’ve taken back control!”

OBVIOUSLY the cases are completely dissimilar/unconnected: except in the mind of the daily Mail reader….. where they are the same in one important regard.

what we have with Begum is a determination to show that the UK, with it’s newly returned sovereignty, and having now taken back control for those unelected beurocrats in brussels, can now successfully eject a terrorist from our shores without having to worry about pesky like things human rights etc

It has nothing to do with that. Shamima Begum was stripped of her British citizenship whilst the UK was still an EU member state.

Plenty of people have been stripped of their British citizenship in recent years. The law allowing it was relaxed in 2006 under a Labour government and ten years before even the EU referendum , it was totally compatible with EU membership:

How many people have been stripped of their British citizenship?

Belgium, France, Germany, and the Netherlands , all EU member states, also have policies of citizenship deprivation as counterterrorism measures:

https://brill.com/view/journals/emil/22/3/article-p338_2.xml?language=en</s

But we’ll done for mentioning brexit anyway, I feel it was what was missing from this thread – every thread discussing contentious issues should deviate away from the subject and blame brexit.

But we’ll done for mentioning brexit anyway

And congratulations for missing the point completely Ernie.  Perhaps the sarcasm in my post was a bit too nuanced?

it’s a rather desperate and ham-fisted attempt to try to show the boomers that Britain is no longer constrained by Europe/the ICC/ EU human rights directive etc etc.  WE CAN EAT AS MANY BENDY BANANAS AS WE LIKE!  “Can’t make somebody stateless?!?!  Says who? – we’ve taken back control!”