Shamima Begum – trafficked, or terrorist?

Personally, I can’t help thinking that if she was of, shall we say, fairer complexion, and came from Bath not Bethnal Green, this would be a case of child grooming and trafficking, not one of terrorism. She was 15 FFS.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-64222463

I agree, total contrast with this case.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-63736944

I have long felt deeply uncomfortable about the removal of her citizenship. I too share the view that race played a factor in that decision. If she is a terrorist, I cannot see how removal of her citizenship makes anyone safer.

Irrespective of whether she was trafficked or is a terrorist, she has lived her whole life in UK and is therefore our victim to care for / terrorist to keep society safe from (delete as appropriate).

Groomed and trafficked.  she is a victim

I think its a bit of both. I do think there are questions for her family as to why she was flown out there in the first place. As usual we get the 2 polarised views of innocent victim and hardened terrorist. I suspect the truth lies somewhere between the 2 extremes

I do think there are questions for her family as to why she was flown out there in the first place.

They didn’t know the girls were going, the girls basically ran away (after being groomed online).

I would go with groomed but also what terrorism has she been involved in?

I suspect the truth lies somewhere between the 2 extremes

Most likely. But she is a British problem and should be here to face the consequences of her misguided actions. Removing her nationality will be seen as illegal. It’s also petty in the extreme.

I think removing her nationality is a cheap populist trick and an embarrassment for the country. If she is suspected of any illegal activities she should be tried in this country in compliance to the rule of law. We can’t just get rid of problems by brushing them under the carpet.

Groomed, and a victim. The issue is how we deal with her now.

We can’t just revoke nationality. Do it for her, who else will we do it for when it suits?

She is a British citizen, British society and foreign policy led to her being groomed and the whole mess is for “us” to learn from.

She has suffered enough, no further punishment can be justified. Grant her citizenship, use her as an example of how badly these situations can turn out

The slightest hint of continued support for terrorism, she gets prosecuted in the UK under the relevant offences.

Even if she’s not a victim (I think she is) we should be collecting her and putting her on trial as a British citizen in her own country. It’s our ‘mess’ we should deal with it.

We can’t just revoke nationality. Do it for her, who else will we do it for when it suits?

Its obvious that the direction of travel is for UK Citizenship to be able to be withdrawn at the stroke of the Home Secretaries pen, or more likely a junior Home Office official.

This lot just don’t see why they should be encumbered by any obligations under international law and just want to do what the hell they like on a whim to suit their many predjudices

Its obvious that the direction of travel is for UK Citizenship to be able to be withdrawn at the stroke of the Home Secretaries pen, or more likely a junior Home Office official.

I keep banging on about it but Fake Law by the Secret Barrister is an eye opening look at how everybody’s rights have been eroded by pandering to populist/racist opinion.

Agree with all of the above. Groomed and taken advantage of, possibly has terrorism charges to be investigated but is British and should be allowed back to her country to face whatever the law deems necessary.

Why should we expect any other country to look after one of our own, especially when the very same people who froth at the mouth about this lass want all forin, iligal, imigrunts drowning in the channel rather than do the same for them.

It’s because she’s the wrong colour, isn’t it?

I am heartened to see the universal sensible/balanced view of all the commentators here.

I also think she should return as a British citizen,  and be looked after in whatever manner experts in the field deem appropriate.

Groomed and trafficked. she is a victim

Absolutely. And then further abused to score political points for the Home Secretary.

We can’t just revoke nationality. Do it for her, who else will we do it for when it suits?

Hopefully Boris Johnson (born in the USA), Priti Patel & Suella Braverman (both with parents born abroad).

But absolutely agree with the OP.

From what I have read ( if you believe it) is that hundreds have come back to the UK after the collapse of ISIS.
I think they are just using her as a distraction to satisfy the public that the government are actively doing something about the “problem”.

Radio 4 now if you’re interested.

And then further abused to score political points for by the Home Secretary.

I thought the decision was shameful to us as a country.

I thought the decision was shameful to us as a country.

Just one more for the list.

I thought the decision was shameful to us as a country.

Absolutely.

Lazy, populist, illegal, fails to address any actual issues,but whipped up right wing support.

It’s the Tory way.

Clearly groomed and trafficked as a child.
If she had been white, men in balaclavas would have been kicking in doors to find her.
If she has committed crimes as a adult then we/uk need to sort out our own mess.
She’s no more dangerous than any adult male who left to UK to join ISIS and has returned to the UK
Just a convenient figure to get in to a gammon froth about.

has terrorism charges to be investigated but is British and should be allowed

Lesser of two evils for ease. Stripping her of nationality means that if there were an unrealistic chance of prosecution after a subsequent investigation, the government wouldn’t have to answer difficuot questions from those baying for her blood.

It’s genius politicking and abhorrent all at the same time.

I am heartened to see the universal sensible/balanced view of all the commentators here.

Well it is an echo chamber after all 🙂 How come anyone who agrees with what the government has done is not posting, is it because of those big hitters that ruin all the threads?

Lazy, populist, illegal, fails to address any actual issues,but whipped up right wing support.

All of that.  If she was rich, white and could pretend she could supply PPE we’d just slap her wrist and let her go off on holiday

In spite of them being Jacob Rees-Mogg’s usual scapegoat (deployed yesterday re the photo with Mr Johnson edited out) – I doubt a Junior Official was anywhere near this decision. Unless they bought it a cup of tea or photocopied some papers for it.

Groomed. Victim. Later on terrorist. Perhaps. I don’t know. But, 15 FFS, as stated above.

UK citizen. Should be investigated here, if deemed necessary.

Revoking citizenship was a shameful move for a democracy.

Thia former children’s minister Tim Loughton in the BBC article sounds like a right prick. What 15 year old didn’t get into daft ideas and beliefs – that’s the beauty of being young. Many of us were only 1 or 2 stupid decisions away from messing our lives up like this case.

Even if she’s not a victim (I think she is) we should be collecting her and putting her on trial as a British citizen in her own country. It’s our ‘mess’ we should deal with it.

Exactly Nick. I have absolutely no doubt that if is was white and had an English name she would have been treated totally different.

Great Train Robber Ronnie Biggs was never stripped of his nationality, he wasn’t told to apply for Brazilian nationality. He was allowed to return to the UK even if it meant facing justice. In fact the UK government was determined that he should return.

Winds me up big time.

She was influenced as a child, trafficked and coerced by terrorists.

She should not have had her citizenship revoked, however we should seek to both support her and hold her to account for her past, and if needed, future behaviour.

If she was rich, white and could pretend she could supply PPE we’d just slap her wrist and let her go off on holiday

Just as a counterpoint, how many of the above have been off supporting ISIS, had children by/for them and have been banned from returning?

I know ‘we’ keep saying ‘but but, what if…’ but there aren’t any real examples are there?

AIUI, the age of Criminal Responsibility in the UK is 10? Assuming correct, of course she should be tried here under the Rule of Law for any crimes she has committed.

Arbitrarily removing citizenship is the other end of the Rwandan thin wedge – policies made up on the hoof to satisfy the hard of thinking masses.

Oh goody, another STW virtue signalling “I hate racism more than anybody!” Thread.

Does seem a bit harsh to be fair, but perhaps she’s being sacrificed as a deterrent for others thinking of doing this.

Just thinking of alternatives to the ‘tories hate brown people’ standard response.

Daft impressionable young lass who has no doubt learned her lesson, has been punished, and poses no further threat to the uk. I agree if she was white we wouldn’t be having this conversation

Well it is an echo chamber after all 🙂 How come anyone who agrees with what the government has done is not posting, is it because of those big hitters that ruin all the threads?

Fair point.

Agree with everything posted above, but she should also be held to account for any activities she did that could be considered terrorist.
It may be that the grooming is the fundamental cause of any subsequent terrorist activities, but it should all be investigated. (And by that I mean she is very likely to be not guilty in my view, but it should be fairly investigated)

I guess, we don’t really know if she was groomed or whether it was just a silly teenage decision. If it was the latter, then she will definitely have a case to answer for.

and poses no further threat to the uk

Sorry TP, you know this how? Because she’s said so…?

As above, she should be tried and if found guilty, punished for her crimes not lauded as a poor misunderstood child.

I guess, we don’t really know if she was groomed or whether it was just a silly teenage decision.

Well, we do, don’t we.

Let’s just take the terrorism thing out of of it for a sec. A fifteen year old girl (possibly younger when it started) is encouraged by people online to run away from home to travel abroad and marry someone she has never met. These people tell her exactly what to do, where to go, what she’ll need, who will meet her, and how to cover her tracks. Persuade me as to how that is not grooming.

and poses no further threat to the uk

Because she’ll be on numerous watch lists for starters

She won’t be able to buy as much as a pen knife without eyes being raised

Victim, for sure.  Who knows whether or not she’s since provided full information relating to who/how the grooming and trafficking occurred.

encouraged by people online to run away from home to travel abroad and marry someone she has never met. These people tell her exactly what to do, where to go, what she’ll need, who will meet her, and how to cover her tracks

If she was 18, all that would be ‘advice’…

I don’t buy the innocence/grooming angle. At best, she was, a bit gullible but no victim.

Because she’ll be on numerous watch lists for starters

So ‘someone’ has to be on her 24/7 to ensure she’s reformed? Is that reasonable?