“…my concerns lie with those who have to try and get others out of trouble…”

They’re volunteers, Fred, if it’s the MRTs you’re referring to. If I were you I’d just give up on this thread because you fundamentally misunderstand what you’re talking about.

Rudeboy – how were the lives of those called out to help risked? The area had just been avalanched remember. Hardly liable to avalanche again now was it.

It should also be remembered that the rescuers were in the area on excercise too….

rudeboy wrote
Risks were obviously too great for them, as has been proven. Poor judgement.

did you walk anywhere in london today.
you could have been run over, mugged and stabbed, blown up possibly.
would you have assesed the risk 1st.

no poor judgement involved, just bad luck.

I really can’t believe I’m reading this thread on an MTB site. We all take risks. We all do things to keep us ticking over. MTBing is dangerous. Just different from climbing a mountain. I’ve been carried down a mountain after breaking my leg on a bike. Nobody told me off for that. I know I could well be killed or seriously injured when out biking, but I don’t give a **** as it’s what I want to do and there are far worse things I could be doing that would have a negative impact on our society.

You are such a hypocrite.

To be fair the area where the incident happened is notoriously avalanche prone and is probably the most dangerous area in the UK for avalanches.

Unfortunately, not a lot of people know that. The ones that do would find much more interesting ways of approaching the mountain.

but it seems like yet another group of stupid idiots who think they are harder than nature.

wind your neck in

you really haven’t got a clue what happened today

@Rudeboy: Hindsight would be a wonderful thing, if it didn’t come too late.

Life is a risk.

Just had to re-register for the forum to add to those of you condemning Rudeboy for sheer ignorance. I doubt it will be worthwhile, as it seems that Rudeboy doesn’t care that he is both ignorant and insensitive (both of the circumstances of this particular case and of anything to do with mountains in winter more generally).

Unless anyone was out on the hill today, took part in the rescue or has heard from someone who was, and knows the party(ies) involved, it wouldn’t be wise to make any kind of assessment. 3 deaths in the mountains are, as I think you get at in the first post, a tragedy for any number of people involved. Idle speculation as to the responsibility, motives and ethics of those involved in this incident from your cozy desktop is pretty pathetic, given the lack of understanding you show.

Rudeboy: you (and everyone else reading this from the media) has NO idea of what happened out there today so less of the assumption and holier than thou attitude.

EDIT: beaten to it by 4 seconds! Good post crouch-potato

If they’d stayed in their living rooms, they’d still be alive.

people do die in their homes, there were 233 fire deaths in the home in 2006 in Englandshire,

don’t see you complaining about those people who put others at risk trying to save them.

Feh

King

Hell.

One last time…

People take risks. Ok. Granted, it’s part of life, and our Human Nature. Most risk-taking behaviour, however, would also involve some degree of risk-assessment and judgement, as to wether it was worth it or not. you could argue that most things we do involve a certain amount of risk. Opening a can of beans, pouring a kettle, stroking a dog, etc etc…

Some of us like to do hings that others might consider too risky; mountain-biking, climbing, canoeing, motor-racing, gambling, injecting Class A drugs, Tube Surfing, etc, etc…

Soem activities are relatively low-risk, others, higher.

Mountain-biking; medium risk?

Going up the side of a mountain in Scotland, in January, when there is a great risk of avalanche- high risk, no?

Smee, who appears to know and understand the area, says that it is “notoriously avalanche prone and is probably the most dangerous area in the UK for avalanches”

And, as others who have never even met me, and know bugger all about me, have clearly established, I know nothing about mountainous areas or conditions.

But I’d hazard a guess that going out in such conditions carries perhaps a far greater risk than during warmer, calm weather. No? Anyone want to argue that?

Ok.

Several ‘experts’ have stated that conditions were extremely bad. And that those without sufficient equipment/skills/experience etc, should really not be venturing out in such conditions.

9 people were caught up in the avalanche. These were not freak, unexpected weather conditions, such as at the OMM, but completely expected, and in fact very common, at this time of year.

Reason enough, perhaps, to maybe give that particular route a miss? Maybe try something slightly less risky?

Now, I have tried to find out as much info as possible, and accept I have no knowledge of the area concerned. But from what I can gather, it does seem somewhat foolish for anyone but the most experienced and hardened mountaineer, to be out on the mountain today. Would you all not agree?

And if you stop trying to ‘prove RudeBoy wrong because you sometimes get wound up by him’ for just a moment, would you not also agree, that there are some foolish people out there? People who think they are tougher, cleverer, harder than they actually are?

In most cases like this, it has transpired that those who get into trouble, in similar circumstances, have been inexperienced/ill-equipped/foolhardy.

The facts are; they must have been inexperienced/ill-equipped/foolhardy, as they all got into serious trouble. I don’t think even the most cantankerous of any of you can deny that.

Because someone who was sufficiently experienced/properly equipped/sensible, would not have got into trouble, barring any unseen circumstances occurring. I dare say there have been climbers who have done more extreme stuff, today, and survived.

I have, believe it or not, met many outdoor adventure types. I have enjoyed such activities as mountain climbing, abseiling, white water canoeing, cross-country skiing, and been in extremes of temperature from -30ºC, to well over 100ºF. Im sure many people can wave their willies a lot more than me, when it comes to ‘extreme sports’. but doing such activities has taught me to respect and never underestimate the environment I’m in. And to not take risks beyond the point of a reasonable chance of survival.

As for living in London, well, I’ve been beaten up several times, been stabbed and had a gun pointed in me face. Hasn’t put me off going out of my front door, I must say.

As for having an opinion on something, well, yes, I do. And? What, like none of you do?

But thanks for paying attention.

XX

but did you do a risk assesmant prior….. 😆

LOL!

No, silly me!

Ah, come on, I’m sure you lot know what I’m getting at.

Just want to make it clear, I mean no disrespect for those who have tragically lost their lives, or any towards their families and friends. I have lost friends to ‘misadventure’. Human life is precious, and fragile.

I’m not going to comment on this incident as I don’t know the facts (not that it seems to put off many people here), but I find it ironic that the British media frequently spouts off about “‘elf and safety being out of control” and as soon as anyone gets hurt doing an activity they don’t understand goes on about irresponsible actions putting lives at risk.

and as soon as anyone gets hurt doing an activity they don’t understand goes on about irresponsible actions putting lives at risk.

Maybe they shouldn’t do activities they don’t understand, then, and then maybe they wouldn’t get hurt.

Smee

You Scottish?

Look you are either a troll or extremely igonarant of the facts, a few points – climbing/ hill walking is not an “extreme sport” its a pastime/hobby, whether or not these climbers/hill walkers were ill equipped is irelevant and not the issue i am sure, they were involved in an avalanche (category 3 conditions, not particularly high if you are carefull, it is very subjective as conditions can change hourly, the assesment is made the day before etc). this area is notorious because it is a large bowl that funnels into a gorge, there have been fatalities very low in the corrie here, to a group of tourists only ambling into the lower corrie, a very tragic accident.

This is one of the most frequented ascent/descent routes on the mountain, climbers/walkers have to use there own judgement when assesing conditions under foot, sais warnings help but are not conclusive as conditions do change.

You are so wide of the mark, show a little respect to those involved.

Eldridge – yes. Why?

Smee

fibber

he’s ninjanese

I know this areas better than most. I spent several months building the path that winds its way up that coire.

Rudeboy the UK Climbing forum suggests they were on the way down and made a poor decision, Confirmed by some MRT types who were there. They had finished climbing for the day.
It was two separate parties who appear to have been caught in the same avalanche. As stated above experienced mountaineers can cope with the conditions in Glencoe today but they tend to relaxe after finishing the “hard bit” and sometimes forget that the concentration needs to be maintained until the car is reached.

Then, to be fair, you should alert our correspondents to the long-standing Scottish Mountaineering practice of trying to confound the English by deliberate understatement of difficulty in grade-descriptions, guide books etc

The “Scottish Diff” and “Scottish Severe” of climbing are long standing sources of amusement

Applicable in this case is the traditional and often misleading Scots use of “Tourist Route” for the “easiest way up e.g the tourist route on Sgurr nan Gillean on Skye, which as you probably know can hardly be described as a pedestrian route!

That area of the Buachaille may be, as you say “probably the most dangerous area in the UK for avalanches”, but Scots refer to it as the tourist route!
Obviously given the time of year, weather and location, this was a serious mountaineering expedition which just got unlucky.

It only takes a bathtub full of snow to bury you!

Changing tack slightly (since it’s pointless discussing the actual risk with people who clearly know nothing about snow/avalanches). One thing that does p*ss me off is that climbers (particularly Scottish winter climbers) consistently reject carrying avalanche safety equivalent, such as the transceiver, shovel & probe which are de rigeur for off-piste skiers/boarders. Never figured out why.

Because if you carry everything including the kitchen sink, you would never be off the hill before last orders, certainly not practical when doing technical routes, there is way to much hardware to carry as it is. I am speeking as someone who in a pastlife spent ten yrs living in the area obssesing over icy things.

One thing to remember, before the Highlands became a playground for wealthy weekend warriors, people lived in those remote areas, and they walked through all those passes.

I will add a drunken perspective to this thread 😉

Everyone has to go sometime, better to go doing something you enjoy I say. Winter mountaineering is the one thing I’ve done in my life where I’ve truly known what it is to be alive. Taking risks is a good thing.

I’m suprised this thread hasn’t already led onto biking and the helmet vs non-helmet arguement 😉 Same thing in my opinion, risk analysis, blah.

And yes I have great respect for the volunteer guys that rescue people of these lovely mountains, but hey, that’s the reason they apply, they love the mountains, they love the challenges.

When I’ve been out in the hills I always call home when I am back at the car – I reckon that the most risky/daogerous part of the day is just beginning.

And, for gods sake, will some people stop going on about people that are not properly equipt to be out in such conditions. The vast majority are very well prepared.

“3 mountaineers were caught in a slab avalanche today in Glencoe Scotland. They were swept 500 feet from a cornice scarp on the normal ascent route of the mountain Buachaille Etive. All 3 were in cardiac arrest. 2 were dug out by companions and one was located by spot probe.”

This guy was carrying a spot probe, which is more than what most mountaineers would carry. If you’re the sort of guy that carries something like this, then more than likely you’re fairly switched on.

In this case it looks like they got unlucky. Once again, RIP.

Well, I never would have known STW was so full of people expert on extreme avalanche conditions…

Get over yourselves; many of you lot would sh1t yourselves walking through the housing estate I live on.

Rudeboy the UK Climbing forum suggests they were on the way down and made a poor decision

Wasn’t that what I said right at the very beginning?

Ah well. Maybe others will learn from their mistakes.

rudeboy – you’re clearly out of your depth on this one. give it up.

‘Clearly out of your depth’.

Yeah, course I am.

Stop, for a second, and consider the irony of that statement.

Cat 3 avalanche risk FFS that is not bad it does only drop to 2 when there is no snow.

I would have made an assessment on the way in, the way up and all through the day but some days things go wrong even the most prepared get caught out by just one minute. An area as small as your garden could avalanche and kill you, just one small area of snow on a slope that you couldn’t see. It’s part of the risk that is always present.

I’m sat here in Oz reading this as there is more sightings of the great white that nabbed a fisherman at christmas, everybody is still in the water and nobody was calling the guy who got killed stupid or irresponsible. Just he died doing something he loved somewhere he was at home.

rudeboy, your posts in this thread are the most annoying i’ve read on here in a while.

That corrie is the “normal” route for walking up the mountain. But the top is a bit steeper and has down-sloping rock that ices up. Windslab accumulations at the tops of rocky corries/gullys can be particularly unstable. But the depth and coherence of slab depends on the wind direction and strength when it falls and what’s underneath so it’s difficult to assess without actually going up there.
Avalanches are sneaky things and the risks can be very localised. Sometimes, stepping/skiing one metre to the left is safe and one metre to the right sets one off. Cat3 is not unusually high and in 99/100 situations you’ll probably get away with it and call it “good judgement”. Ergo: winter hillwalking/climbing is inherently dangerous, which is why it’s fun.
I’m always very sad when adventurous folk get killed. Regarding the rescuers: they are volunteers, the most experienced climbers in the area and know the score. You’ll find them climbing similar rock, snow and ice on their days off. God bless them all.

I’ve broken a leg, on high remote mountains in full winter conditions. Think I might have more experience of winter mountaineering and MRT callouts than our city dwelling OP.

With the greatest respect to Fred, he’s talking a complete load of*******, but not for the first (nor I suspect the last) time.

anyone else been avalached in scotland cos i have so i guess i must be reckless and lucky but thats why i like mountains biking and climbing off piste sking

Rudeboy/fred

Take it easy. The new forum has heralded a new start for many previous forum users and that includes you. It was constant posts of this nature that ended up getting out of hand that resulted in you getting a LOT of moderator attention. While I don’t think you are deliberately trolling you are starting on a path that is going to end as it did last time if you don’t curb your posts and your opinions. This is not a warning as such, it is genuinely meant as advice.. Think BEFORE you press the ‘send post’ button about what the likely reaction is to your comments.

OK, I’ll leave it there, as many people have misunderstood what I was trying to get at.

I’m not suggesting that anyone should not enjoy all sorts of outdoor activities, some of which involve a certain amount of risk. Like mountain biking. And mountaineering. But everyone would surely agree, better to be prepared, have the right kit, be aware of danger, etc.

Every winter, we see reports of this type of tragedy. And as I said before, very often, the reason that things have ended in tragedy is because people have just gone beyond the limits of safety, without being equipped and prepared for the worst. I appreciate there are accidents, which cannot be foreseen. But others here have agreed, that there are a small number of people who are reckless and stupid, and who’s ill-judged actions put their own, and sometimes others, lives at risk.

So when I speak of responsibility, I am talking about the need to balance the desire for adventure, with the need to preserve life and safety, and to minimise risk to others. And, to be able to enjoy your chosen activity, and still be around for your family and friends. I would be all for anyone I love, to go and enjoy themselves in whatever activity they wanted, but I would also want them to still be around.

Yeah but the fact is that you weren’t there and you don’t know whether they did do anything particularly reckless, or were just unlucky, and damning people who died while out enjoying the hills in winter is pretty unpleasant behaviour in my book.

News from The Scotland on Sunday from a member of GMRT. Tragic Accident.