“there are a small number of people who are reckless and stupid”

Your idea of reckless could be my idea of boring, and so on. I’ve never met anyone on the hills I would mark-down as reckless, just adventurous. But misjudgements happen for all sorts of reasons we can’t assess here. If you go into the wilds it’s obvious your stepping outside the urban safety net, and that’s how it should be. The price for that freedom is occasional injuries and deaths. Try to remember those unfortunate peoples’ plight next time you’re out there.

It was a tragic accident.

That said they died doing what they loved in a beautiful place with friends, it can’t have been particularly pleasant way to go but I would say that there are alot worse places/ways to die.

lets hope their relatives have the sense and decency not to cover the area with flags, flowers & soft toys.

Walker Tom Richardson survived the avalanche and called the rescue teams.
He said: “As I got to the top of the pass the edge of the slope – it wasn’t corniced – broke away and we were taken down an avalanche, some of us rode out the top of it and others got buried.”

Glencoe Mountain Rescue leader, John Grieve, said: “The first two had been dug out by the party themselves, they did very well, they located one of the buried friends and… started resuscitation.
“Then using their ice axes as probes they quickly located the second member of the party and dug him out as well.”

Seems that they were experienced, and well equipped. And prepared to deal with emergencies.

Should they have been there, with such high risk? That’s the judgement call they made. On they will have to live with, not I. And I have not ‘damned’ anyone. I’ve questioned people’s judgement.

Yes, it’s easy to sit behind my keyboard and have an opinion, it’s what we all do, be it the situation in Gaza, the economy, ‘Chavs’, 4x4s, immigrants, etc.

I have to say, in spite of overwhelming opposition, my initial opinion on this matter hasn’t changed. I don’t wish to antagonise matters further, but I will respond, if I feel people are being unfair towards me. I wouldn’t say I’ve ‘enjoyed’ the ‘debate’, but it has been interesting.

We’re all different, and have different opinions on stuff.

Let’s just leave it at that.

The Scotland on Sunday piece seems a bit better written than the Mail’s effort:

‘The iconic Buachaille Etive Mor, which features on a host of postcards and calendars, is considered to be one of the most dangerous in Scotland. It is shaped like a pyramid and is generally only ever scaled by climbers with ropes and proper climbing gear. ‘

Er…. no. Thousand of tourists walk up it every year with no ropes or gear.

RudeBoy – Member

and as soon as anyone gets hurt doing an activity they don’t understand goes on about irresponsible actions putting lives at risk.
Maybe they shouldn’t do activities they don’t understand, then, and then maybe they wouldn’t get hurt.

No you misunderstand. I meant when anyone gets hurt doing an activity the media doesn’t understand.

Fred: “I’ve questioned people’s judgement.”

This is why you’ve upset everyone.
Unless you have relevant experience (and it seems you havn’t), then you’ve no moral right to question their judgement.

Think about it.

I think the fact that the leader of the Mountain Rescue team had nothing but praise for the folk involved says more about the incident than any of us waffling away on here ever will.

If there weren’t risks and dangers in the mountains then there wouldn’t be any need for mountain rescue teams, and you can bet that those same teams are always the first to encourage folk to get oaway from their tellies and their sofas and to get into the hills.

Should they have been there, with such high risk? That’s the judgement call they made. On they will have to live with, not I. And I have not ‘damned’ anyone. I’ve questioned people’s judgement.

It wasn’t “such high risk” though. Avalanche Risk 3 (medium) and, as mentioned elsewhere on this thread that can be subjective at best and change hourly.

It really doesn’t take much for a simple accident to turn into a life-or-death situation very quickly and you can’t legislate against accidents. When my mate came off, it was a simple fall at low speed but it turned into a full-on MR team callout involving 30 guys, 3 Landies and an RAF Sea King helicopter. We were well prepared, had spare clothing, food, drink, mobile/GPS, spares and a bit of first aid kit but nothing that could save a guy lying on the rocks with a fractured hip.
It sounds (from reading the proper reports rather than the sensationalist crap in the Daily Wail) that this was a similar situation, to them it was a normal day out in the hills. To an armchair reader in their cosy city house, it sounds incomprehensibly silly.

I can (just about) see where you’re coming from with your arguments but as many people have stated, you’ve gone about it in entirely the wrong way. You may be questioning other peoples judgement but you don’t seem to be questioning your own judgement in making some of your statements.

And one final thing on the topic………three folk died yesterday in a tragic accident doing something they love…………how many folk died yesterday in Britain because they’d spent a lifetime smoking, or drinking too much, or being junkies, or because they were fat slobs who never took any exercise? I’ve no idea, but let’s say it was 20. And 20 the day before, and 20 the day before that etc…….why isn’t it headline news in every paper?

Because if you carry everything including the kitchen sink, you would never be off the hill before last orders, certainly not practical when doing technical routes, there is way to much hardware to carry as it is. I am speeking as someone who in a pastlife spent ten yrs living in the area obssesing over icy things.

Wearing a transceiver is hardly taking the kitchen sink along. There’s absolutely no penalty to using one (other than the cost, but even that’s a lot less than a couple of ropes and a few ice screws…)

Not sure it would have helped in this situation mind you…

I have to say that kennyp’s responses have been fair, well reasoned and pragmatic.

Rudeboy’s attitude reminds me of a headline in The Sun about avalanches:

“When will these extreme sports fanatics learn to stay away from the French Alps?”

Don’t know if this has been mentioned before, but the key to their either lack of experience or foolishness is that they either didn’t read the avalanche forecast for that day, didn’t know how to intepret it or just ignored it. As alot of people have said already, many climbers/walkers, including myself, would go out on a grade 3 considerable warning. However, the reports always tell you on which facing slopes/gullies the risks are considerable and therefore not to be ventured on. All other facing slopes will be safe. On that day the grade 3 considerable risk was for NNW thru to East facing aspects. That Coire is directly North facing so right within the risk zone for that day, coupled with the fact that it is a notorious coire for avalanches, then they made a really bad, possibly uninformed, decision.

Anything like this is so sad and my thoughts are with the families of the lost ones. Its so terribly sad.

As an experienced hillwalker, whilst I found the OPs post a bit “urban insular”, it has provoked a good discussion on the subject and I’ve picked up a lot of good points that I will think about when next out. As such this has been a pretty good thread IMHO.

NB Last time I was at Afan I found a lad with exposure 300yards from Glyn Corwyg and helped him back to the centre. So misfortune can happen to anyone, almost anywhere. Did I say i thought he should have thought about it before he went, no, I was just glad to be there at the time and hoped it didn’t put him off going again (with perhaps an extra layer or two and a bit of food next time).

I have not read the whole thread but sorry rudeboy – you are missing a point. avalanche risk of 3 is fine for walking / climbing in. Any experienced mountaineer would know what to look for and amend their route accordingly. I don’t know the details but I see absolutely no reason not to be climbing when they did – I would have done happily and I am no risk taker. I have herd that the obvious place for a unstable cornice had no cornice or obvious build up of snow.

These people probably did make a mistake – but how stupid a mistake we just don’t know.

Scottish winter mountaineering is serious and needs to be taken seriously, an average year kills 20 – 30 folk, but is enjoyed by many many more folk. I myself have climbed that mountain in winter. Its all about awareness and risk assessment. If its not something you do then don’t criticise folk for something you know little about. I have altered my route on a mountain to avoid what looked like an unstable slope – the next weekend 3 people died there.

I don’t think the people involved were being stupid or irresponsible.

TJ is spot on, the avalanche warning was 3 OUT OF 5. I don’t know many mountaineers in Scotland who would be put off by warning at 3 (including myself). In fact its long running joke that its almost always at 3!

Terribly sad for sure, but unlucky rather than irresponsible IMO.

Aye they took a considerable risk however where do you draw the line? Only climb on a Summers day? It’d stop becoming a challenge to any climber. They push themselves I guess, continually tackling greater climbs with inherent higher risks.

I’m not a climber but I can see what and why they do that. Of course there is the arguement about the risk (forget the cost) to the Mountain rescue teams and seaking crews. After all, exposing yourself to danger will also expose others to the same if you get it wrong.

Thats the only part I question. If you opt to climb in a considerable risk zone you should understand and agree to attempt this unsupported.

Andy is spot on, my trying to be cool daughter underwent first stage hypothermia in the centre of Graz one December. There were some harsh words about layers when she had warmed up. The excuse was “I was too warm in the car” and her grandfather hadn’t paid attention to what was going on when they left the car.

Hora – one doesn’t always seek out more and more risk on the mountains. Its not an adrenaline sport in the same way as MTBing. The risk of accident is always there in varying amounts.

On Saturday there would have be many thousands of people on the mountains. That mountain is in no way difficult or dangerous in comparison to others around. We are not talking an extreme sport here.

You will never hear anyone from mountain rescue complaining about people who are out there with sufficient experience and equipment. The do mountain rescue because they love the mountains. The RAF use it as live training for rescues in war zones. So its not a considerable risk zone and the rescue services are volunteer from the community who do rescue gladly and happily

Anyone know which route they were on? I guess the main route up the corrie? Pic from last year

Look at the amount of footprints – loads of folk go up there.

I was in that area the weekend before last, we very nearly did BEM because it was the easier option: not as high, nearer the road and looked clear of snow for the most part. That weekend there was less snow around, and it was colder. We pushed on and did Ben Starav, about 5 miles south of BEM. the forecast was for severe weather coming in by nightfall, 5 pm. We planned to be up and back by then, with little margin for error. Crucially, we missed pushing for the top by about 30-40 minutes because we wouldn’t have been back in the car by dark, nor would we have been below the snow line by the time the weather began to turn. So we did go out knowing bad weather was coming, but we stayed within our limits and made it back down just before dusk, if we had copped it in bad weather it would’ve been bad luck. We then got a puncture on our way back to the A82 in Glencoe, and after 2 hours a towtruck came to take us back to Glasgow. The truck crashed at Bridge of Orchy: a gate blew open and smashed the cab and windscreen in, we were extremely lucky to get out un-hurt. We had to wait in the pub for an hour, for two more trucks, one for the written off truck, and another for the car.
Which just shows, shit can happen, planning or not. All evening we were saying, if only we’d done BEM…….

TJ I| think they were on the way down Coire na Tulaich when a climber above triggered the avalanche. (He can’t be feeling too good today). The chap above used an axe arrest and did not fall. The party at the bottom caught the full force and 3 were buried. Decent report linked at the bottom of page 2 by me.

blimey didgerman….

kennyp – Member

And one final thing on the topic………three folk died yesterday in a tragic accident doing something they love…………how many folk died yesterday in Britain because they’d spent a lifetime smoking, or drinking too much, or being junkies, or because they were fat slobs who never took any exercise? I’ve no idea, but let’s say it was 20. And 20 the day before, and 20 the day before that etc…….why isn’t it headline news in every paper?

I agree Kenny – I would not be out in the hills if it were not for an element of risk. Far rather a life lived than a life wasted on the sofa.

Sandwich – that sounds like “sh1t just happens” Nothing at all you can do about that.

There’s a lot of argument as to why its better than sitting on a sofa, which IMO is true, but that is not really the point. The point is that it was their choice to go out, it was their choice to climb that bit. It was their choice to risk it, however small or large they thought that risk was, and they made a mistake and paid for it dearly. No-one else really has the right to wave hindsight-fingers, on another day if someone had posted a story about a 63 year old chap still climbing in snow and summiting such mountains, taking photos, getting out and living, we’d all be patting them on the back. Now when it goes wrong people point and blame.

As a family member, of course I’d still like that person around, but I’d be glad they were doing what they loved.

I haven’t got time to read the whole thread unfortunately, but:

Certainly, quite a few of these ‘Extreme Outdoor Adventure’ types that I’ve met, have been quite arrogant, and it seems that they use the ‘sports’ as a way of showing off; ‘look how hard I am’. I’ve met people who’ve actually boasted about having to be rescued by helicopter and stuff. Stupid ****.

Of all the climbers I’ve known (and I used to climb) I never knew anyone who was in it for the showing off. Maybe sport climbers are like that, but mountaineers? I can’t imagine it.

As for the risks – it’s up to you as a node in the great social/personal network to make sure that the people you know and love, and those who love you, understand that you are doing something risky (could be climbing or mtbing, anything), why you are doing it and what the consequences might be.

Personally, I find it a truly wonderful thing that our society values the richness of life enough that people are prepared to devote their lives to providing the safety net that we need to explore it without complaining and often without even being paid. That goes for mountain rescue, race marshalls, paramedics at mtb events, motor racing events, marathons etc etc.

What molgrips said. I found generally mtbers to act much more like arrogant mini poo heads than climbers/mountaineers. Specially since the mtbers with a very big mouth are usually the one that push their bike the most.

I do think you have open your mouth without knowing anything about the subject fred. As said the avalanche risks wasn’t inconsiderate. I use to go snow shoeing a lot on my own, and with a risk of 3 I would still go out even on my own. I’ll probably stay somewhere where I know it’s safe, slope is not too important and where I am likely to meet a lot of people.

Read Rudeboy’s first post, which is wrong, and molgrip’s last, which is right. Apologies to those who are also right who got stuck in the middle somewhere and I didn’t read.

I saw “Man On Wire” at the weekend. Reckless, insane, pointless, brilliant, beautiful. Why are we alive? and what does “safe” mean?

In theory, is it better to be crushed and suffocated by an avalanche, or by joyless dullards’ demands that your life gets smaller and smaller? 😐

climber above triggered the avalanche

I did this once and went down about 100ft before axe braking stopped me. Thankfully no-one was below and I was on top of the slide. The poor guys euphoria in stopping would be dashed due to the casulties further down. Can’t imagine what he’s going through. Cat 3 avalanche warning? that wouldn’t have stopped me going on the hill either.

Why do you do it? – I gave up years ago trying to explain to non mountaineers and cavers (usually asked after an accident!) and I’ve been doing it for over 40 years.

Rubbish photo from a slide. The cornices are over 10ft high & a couple in the office thought I must be stupid climbing under them 🙂