Scotland Indyref 2

Starmer says
No to indyref 2
No to single market
No to further devolution
No to any pact with the SNP
No to electoral reform.
That’s a short list but enough to convince a lot of Scots that there is not enough difference between Labour and Tory.

That’s a short list but enough to convince a lot of Scots that there is not enough difference between Labour and Tory.

Not enough of a difference – sure. But clearly there will be differences. Starmer’s hands are tied to an extent by his electoral position, as are all UK politicians thanks to the system we have. Which is kind of the point of democracy, in a way. Sad but true.

as are all UK politicians thanks to the system we have.

If only the people of Scotland had another option…

Not enough of a difference – sure. But clearly there will be differences. Starmer’s hands are tied to an extent by his electoral position, as are all UK politicians thanks to the system we have. Which is kind of the point of democracy, in a way. Sad but true.

So Starmer wants change but doesn’t want change… Not palatable to many folks. He’s lost me with his pinhead dancing.

And his hands don’t need to be tied as regards the system – I honestly think the first politician to really spell out how to modernise UK politics would be on a winner.

I just don’t get Starmer’s position at all. Much of the drive towards an Indy Scotland is to escape perpetual & nakedly corrupt Tory Govt under the WM FPTP system. If he can offer a real alternative with a push to PR, a ‘progressive alliance’ coalition with LDs, Greens and SNP, nationalised utilities, a codified constitution, Brexit mitigation, windfall taxes, restrictions on lobbying & expenses, genuine accountability etc etc, then the desire for many Scots to escape the current shitshow would surely diminish and may save the union? His current stance simply pushes the mibbies aye / mibbies naw Scots firmly towards a yes vote. Perhaps he’s keeping his powder dry to keep the Tufton St wolves at bay and will emerge from a phone box with his SKS pants on over his tights a couple of months before the next GE and hold aloft a raft of sensible centrist policies to save the union. Won’t hold my breath….

I honestly think the first politician to really spell out how to modernise UK politics would be on a winner.

Agreed. And it wouldn’t need to go as far as downshep says (nationalisation, windfall taxes etc would not be everyone’s ideal). Ironically it would be playing the Tories at their own “levelling up” game. The problem for labour is it either involves admitting they can’t win on the current system (and thus have to rig the system for the future) OR risk their own seats – the reason we have FPTP is it works for the two parties big enough to initiate change. I think the other problem is anyone tackling the union will have to face up to the Brexit shambles – that’s scary for politicians, how can they say “its a stupid idea” when the public backed it… How can you deal with Scotland and NI without addressing it properly. A real statesman could probably make EEA or similar seem win-win for everyone.

Well, the fact he’s not Johnson is an absolutely major difference. You won’t see policies coming from them until nearer an election.

No, thats both temporary and ignores the motivations for Indy pre date Boris.

Unless something really fundamental shifts in the way UK politics work then its not going to wash.

No, thats both temporary and ignores the motivations for Indy pre date Boris.

Some people’s do yes. I’m not using Starmer as a pro-union argument, I’m simply addressing the point that ‘nothing would change’ with Starmer, when it will. Wether or not that’s enough is up to you.

I honestly think the first politician to really spell out how to modernise UK politics would be on a winner.

I honestly don’t because most people haven’t got a **** clue what any of it is actually about.

You won’t see policies coming from them until nearer an election.

Which is a bit of a problem if there is an IndyRef before then.

You won’t see policies coming from them until nearer an election.

This is a problem for me. I want to like Starmer, but it is not enough to not be Johnson. I want to know what he thinks and stands for.

Right wing media hostility or not, he should start laying out his policies – because as we are seeing in elections around the world (look at AUstralia and the Murdoch press) that the right wing press does not equate to the will of the people. People are tired of the culture wars.

I say again, I want to like Starmer, and I need him to have the courage of his convictions and believe his ideas are worth laying out now. Otherwise we’ll need to wait for an election and the infuriating pointless poster reveals. FFS.

I say again, I want to like Starmer, and I need him to have the courage of his convictions and believe his ideas are worth laying out now.

Probably best read the Starmer thread 😄. You seem to be suggesting that he/Labour have ideas that are different from the current government whereas I see no evidence of that.

This is a problem for me.

Agree but I think it’s how the LP works. They decide policies at the conference, they don’t belong to the leader do they?

Wether or not that’s enough is up to you.

Its not, theres nothing of any serious or believable substance thats going to change the equation.

Conference does not bind the plp anymore

I was talking about the UK not Scotland.

Maybe you were but they are two distinct issues. Frankly the Labour leader is immaterial and Starmer is a complete irrelevance. This will continue to be the case as long as Scottish Labour continue to play their own batshit game of SNP Baaad! to the detriment of their own parties policies. They would rather vote against their own policies and in fact their own candidates than allow the SNP to implement either. So long as this myopic shithousery continues people will continue to avoid them, and by extension the wider Labour Party, for the childish rabble that they are. Labour’s troubles in Scotland are entirely of their own making and as long as they refuse to change then they will be left behind.

https://www.thenational.scot/news/20609595.angela-rayner-scottish-independence-not-nice-means-perpetual-tory-rule/

“Leaving us to perpetual Conservatism at Westminster is not very nice … 🤷‍♂️

That above has to be one of the biggest heaps of shite ever. Labour has been trotting it out since about 2011.Scots are not leaving England or English people behind to anything. If English people don’t want a Tory government don’t vote for them. It’s that simple. I’m disappointed in Rayner I hoped for better from her. Rant over.

Frankly the Labour leader is immaterial and Starmer is a complete irrelevance.

I think that depends if you are in the take back control camp or the anything but Westminster camp.

It’s that simple.

I don’t think it is tbh. I mean I’m not saying I agree with Rayner but it’s not simple, divorce never is.

I reckon our only chance of independence is to raise an army and invade lower England 😕

No stopping this time.

I never mentioned divorce molgrips. I did say that if people in England don’t want a Tory government they should not vote Tory. I’m aware that different areas vote for different parties but fundamentally it’s as simple as I suggested

Maybe you were but they are two distinct issues. Frankly the Labour leader is immaterial and Starmer is a complete irrelevance. This will continue to be the case as long as Scottish Labour continue to play their own batshit game of SNP Baaad! to the detriment of their own parties policies. They would rather vote against their own policies and in fact their own candidates than allow the SNP to implement either. So long as this myopic shithousery continues people will continue to avoid them, and by extension the wider Labour Party, for the childish rabble that they are. Labour’s troubles in Scotland are entirely of their own making and as long as they refuse to change then they will be left behind.

TBH the what I see from the Lib-Dem’s here is no different, their leader is playing the same game – very much supporting football team politics.

I think that depends if you are in the take back control camp or the anything but Westminster camp.

Nope, you’re wrong. I’m very much of the “take back control” ilk as are most folk I know. My point was written very much from that perspective. I don’t know how much you actually hear about Scottish Labour but they could certainly give Boris and his bampots a run for their money, at least the tories are competent enough to shoot someone else rather than their own feet.

TBH the what I see from the Lib-Dem’s here is no different, their leader is playing the same game – very much supporting football team politics.

Oh they’re all at it, I agree. Doesn’t help that Libs are practically invisible up here.

Just catching-up on the day’s news and threads – and that’s disappoint nonsense from Labour. Weird that she blames the Scots for not voting Labour and the Tories keep forming unholy alliances in Scotland.

I hope the SNP go hard on the dysfunction of Ofgem which means that bountiful and relatively cheap renewable power must be sold at inflated prices as part of their “rules”. Makes no sense and, while unpleasant, could make quite a good wedge issue (if you accept the stauts quo as being untenable).

The dichotomy is that a referendum will be a YES/NO vote where you end up dropping out completely, or staying in. Wheras a union is forged over time, built up by several smaller agreements with back and forth, re-negotiations and so on.

So you’re saying we don’t have a union? 😉

Supreme court decision due tomorrow.

anyone want to take bets?

My guess is that they’ll park any decision as there is no Referendum Bill yet, so it’s all too hypothetical. See Martin Keatings.

I have a sneaking suspicion it might get the green light. But I wouldn’t even bet a bawbee on it

Westminster can stop subsidizing the country

Wonderful! Can we go now? Don’t worry about passing on your debts either, as we’re such a basket case we’ll never pay them back 🤣

I would expect the SNP to want to get this done whilst the Tories are still here. If the Tories collapse further and get routed in the next GE then it’ll make the union look a bit more appealing to a lot of people, I reckon.

Nope. anti tory is a small amount of the motivation but you have to understand that the labour party and the tories are seen as two cheeks of the same arse

you do realise that in local councils in Scotland labour are doing deals with the tories to keep the SNP out even to the point of on Edinburgh council two labour Councillors where thrown out of the party for refusing to back a deal with the tories

A labour government will make very little difference to independence support because they co operate with tories against the SNP in Scotland and a labour government will not do the things that the scots electorate want

Labour are seen as part of the problem not part of the solution. If labour were pro EU and pro real constitutional change then maybe but until they are…………………..

Yes or No will still be mainly about whether people feel like it will be better for them, their families and communities and so on. The SNP and the other side will have to sell that with as much facts or predictions as they can, discounting those who will vote Yes or No no matter what (Nationalists, Monarchists, etc).

Not sure I totally agree TJ. There are of course plenty of people pro independent for lots of very good pro independent reasons. But there are a good dollop who are mainly persuaded (or at the very least were once on the fence but have now jumped to independence) by the Westminster shambles. And a shambolic, crony raddled, scandal hit, introvert set of tories with a whiff of Johnston still lingering over them, is just about the perfect foil to an independence campaign.

With a shiny new (new) Labour in power with a semblance of competence (even if you object to their policies about Scotland) there will be a few returning to sit on the fence who’ll need their insecurities about the economics of becoming independence quelling again. The ‘panic’ to leave at any cost (a perceived any cost rather than a factual any cost) to get away from the madness will die down.

Of course the perfect scenario might be the tories continuing to be shown as awful human beings in every measurable way to anyone who values morals or good judgement but an English-centric electorate still voting them back in in 2024. That nightmare groundhog day might just be the proof needed that things are never going to change and the marginal voters will be convinced that they fundamentally cant abide the current situation if an alternative might be possible.

We’re about to enter a 2 year period of austerity and struggles, that’ll have more of an effect on those who could be swayed one way or the other, a lot of folk aren’t that bothered by tories or politicians being daft, they usually think all of them are daft.

Convert – thats the way most folk up here see labour and the tories. No real difference. Partly due to their antics in holyrood and partly due to the behaviour on councils.

I can’t remember – are you scotland based?

I would like to see it happen but i fear there is too much uncertainty in the UK due to the current conditions(economy,wars,strikes,pay etc) and the (Scottish) voters just won’t want to take the chance.

I can’t remember – are you scotland based?

Yep – born here, 46 years down south, but back from 2020. If I’d have had a vote in 2014 I’d have voted no; now I would definitely vote yes.

Yes, labour and tory have a bad rep – but the current tory mob has a special level of incompetence and value base that is very easy to despise….and sway the swayable. Like many aspects of democracy, the independence vote will have precious little to do with convincing diehards and everything to do with ‘the mood’ of the persuadable middle. And right now, after the last 12 months of Westminster chaos they are ripe for persuasion, making this pretty much the perfect moment.

I would expect the SNP to want to get this done whilst the Tories are still here. If the Tories collapse further and get routed in the next GE then it’ll make the union look a bit more appealing to a lot of people, I reckon.

Completely agree, I’m not so sure the high court will play ball tho

Its not just they have a bad reputation. they are seen as the same. same anti democratic instincts, same refusal to accept brexit is wrong, same general fiscal approach. Labour have nothing to offer scotland

Sure 10 years of competent labour government in westminster that took us back into the EU would change that but if this isn’t decided in oct 23 it will be at the next GE. there is no time for labour to rehabilitate and quite honestly given how they behave in Scotland they don’t deserve rehabilitation

Imagine a labour local party kicking two councilors out because they refused to go into coaltion with the tories. that shows a great deal

vote labour get tory

The only way Scotland and the scottish people can get the government they vote for is independence.

The only way Scotland and the scottish people can get the government they vote for is independence

Actually post Indy there would still be around half the population not getting the govt they voted for. That is democracy. A big chunk don’t get the govt they voted for.

As for Scotland getting the govt it votes for? It has the SNP who are responsible for most of the day to day stuff that effects people’s lives. Health, education, police, fire, local govt, etc etc.

Personally I think they are making a bit if an arse if it and Indy wouldn’t change that. Ferries, drug deaths etc.

It’s moot though. I very much doubt there will be another indyref any time soon.