Scotland Indyref 2

The pragmatic one of trying to salvage something from the ashes. And the emotional one of wanting to stick it to England.

Yes, but they be weighing it up against the precedence set by negotiation with a regional government.

Edit: That said I should look into the Denmark thing mentioned before, was this Iceland? Or Greenland?

Edit2: Greenland [url= https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/politics/scottish-politics/213189/greenland-could-give-hope-to-scotland-on-independent-eu-membership/ ]https://www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/politics/scottish-politics/213189/greenland-could-give-hope-to-scotland-on-independent-eu-membership/[/url]

I'm sure the E.U. would love to have Scotland. They love a lame duck.

sturgeon on bbc now.

basically saying, seeking to sta in the eu, will be having discussion with eu members, will be putting together a cross party advisory panel. and ensuring eu nationals they are welcome.

Incredible amount of antiScottish racism here.

It will be good when we are no longer shackled to a country with that attitude towards us.

I would imagine it's a given now that the UK situation has changed and I wish Scotland the best of luck. What's the point with crowing jingoism? It would be a step into the unknown just like brexit will be for us in England.
Those kind of sentiments are just as moronic as those from some of the brexit camp.

Edit: racism from both sides of the border in this thread already, can't you just be happy that each country is allowed to make a choice on its future.

Incredible amount of antiScottish racism here.

It's just banter, innit.

It's just banter, innit.

Bitterness / resentment, that some parts of he UK might escape the act of mass stupidity we've just committed.

There's another factor that just occurred to me: EU nationals living in the UK were not allowed to vote in the EU referendum. They were allowed to vote in the first Scottish independence referendum, so will be in the second.

That's 150,000 people now very likely to vote Yes.

Additionally, 16-17-year-olds were not able to vote in the first Independence referendum and were not able to vote in the EU referendum, but Scottish voting legislation has changed so they would be able to vote in a second Scottish Independence referendum.

Another very pro-EU group there too, also very likely to vote Yes.

[quote=bencooper ]The pragmatic one of trying to salvage something from the ashes. And the emotional one of wanting to stick it to England.

I've seen little sign of any desire for the former from Juncker et al (though plenty of the latter). Though the trouble with that assumption is that by keeping Scotland the EU retains some of the advantages of the UK being a member - whilst in reality IS would be fairly irrelevant. Scotland on its own simply isn't enough big enough for them to be that bothered.

Though of course there's also this issue:

[quote=bencooper ]Yup, that'd be great - then you can find out it's us that's been subsidising you not the other way around.

You have seen the most recent figures with the current oil price? 😯

add in the mass of people now thinking they've been done over... I think polls should start to reflect it soon enough.

aracer - Member
bencooper » The pragmatic one of trying to salvage something from the ashes. And the emotional one of wanting to stick it to England.
I've seen little sign of any desire for the former from Juncker et al (though plenty of the latter). Though the trouble with that assumption is that by keeping Scotland the EU retains some of the advantages of the UK being a member - whilst in reality IS would be fairly irrelevant. Scotland on its own simply isn't enough big enough for them to be that bothered.

Only 6 out of the 27 have 20m+.

plus I doubt sturgeon would be acting as she is without some sort nod through backchannels.

The EU looking to pile the pressure on to trigger article 50 would suggest they are quite hostile to brexit, so spliting the uk won't be an undesirable thing to them imo. They are looking to set a precident here. lot of people looking on.

[quote=seosamh77 ]If the EU isn't interested in countries with a population of 5 million. why do 11 of the 27 EU member states have 5 million or less population... a further 7 have 10m or less.

Of course the EU is interested in smaller countries - but there's no particular reason for it to be more interested in a small Scotland than it would be in any other small country, which is what was being suggested as a reason why Scottish membership would be fast-tracked (which would be required for some of the other assumptions to work).

The EU looking to pile the pressure on to trigger article 50 would suggest they are quite hostile to brexit, so spliting the uk won't be an undesirable thing to them imo. They are looking to set a precident here. lot of people looking on.

The EU central junta maybe - but I suspect they're about to get a reality check they don't have quite as much power as they think they do, and such a split isn't so desirable to some EU members.

Ie the EU isn't interested in countries with a population of 5 million

The Spanish attitude may change after Sunday. There's common ground between the Catalans and the Scots, and tremendous unemployment in Spain, particularly amongst the young. One may anticipate a protest vote. There is a new mayor in Rome from Beppe Grillo's M5S party, another in Turin. It's going to be interesting.

Why should indyref 2 give a different result? The 36% Scots who voted Brexit are likely to vote no.

Add in the fact the SNP oil riches claim from indyref 1 has been blown out the water. Add in the massive deficit last year.

How many of the 64% who voted Remain will decide the UK union where most of our trade and our family and friends are is on balance better than the EU?

Getting another 15% on top of the Scots Brexits doesn't look too hard to me.

Other thing to bear in mind is the current devolution deal is now more or less worthless, from both sides of the argument. When this process stops, it's only going to fuel the yes vote next time round I think.
I also think the EU will be more open in its approach this time, as the reason they would not discuss the options last time was they felt it was a constitutional issue to be decided within the UK. This time, a country that is currently in the EU and chose to remain in the referendum is now facing removal against the wishes of its electorate. I'd say this gives both NS and the EU a good reason to openly discuss the options and present them to the electorate if a 2nd indy ref occurs.
Other thing to consider is I imagine the EU would want to limit the loss of the UK as much as possible, if this meant an option to keep Scotland IF it became independent I think they would be keen to do so.
I guess we'll see.

FastYoungGit commented...

In or out what ever your view. I'm sure you ll be pleased to hear Jean-Claude Juncker saying we cannot delay the process and insisting we change prime minister in days (rather than following due process) as we owe it to Europe.

I think the point made was that the British voting public (rightly or wrongly) didn't want unelected EU officials dictating our politics.

This time, [b]a country[/b] that is currently in the EU and chose to remain in the referendum

Does the EU see Scotland as a country? I mean in a technical sense. Is it the same as Greenland?

Edit: Gibraltar and Northern Ireland may also be looking for the same deal as Scotland too

How many of the 64% who voted Remain will decide the UK union where most of our trade and our family and friends are is on balance better than the EU?

That 62% doesn't include the 150,000 EU citizens or all the 16-17 year olds who weren't eligible to vote in the Eu referendum but will be eligible to vote in the Independence referendum.

aracer - Member
seosamh77 » If the EU isn't interested in countries with a population of 5 million. why do 11 of the 27 EU member states have 5 million or less population... a further 7 have 10m or less.
Of course the EU is interested in smaller countries - but there's no particular reason for it to be more interested in a small Scotland than it would be in any other small country, which is what was being suggested as a reason why Scottish membership would be fast-tracked (which would be required for some of the other assumptions to work).

I'd say there's a bit question over whether it's being fast track or retaining membership, we aren't the ones wanting to leave.

[quote=dmorts ]Does the EU see Scotland as a country?

?

Of course Scotland is a country, and is recognised as such by, well everyone! The fact is is in a political union with England, Wales and Northern Ireland does not diminish or reduce Scotland's legal status.

Edit: What else could it be?

I think the last election was as good an indicator of the shift in attitudes as anything else. SNP almost across the board as voters realised The Promise was waffle and then we still ended up with the Tory. The EU vote another.

Edit: What else could it be?

Something that the EU uses as an excuse not to go along with Nicolas Sturgeon's ambitions, e.g. saying it is just a region

Under any test Scotland is a country, it's politically, historically, geographically distinct and has its own legal system, Parliament etc.

Why would the EU not want Scotland to stay in the EU?

Edit: What else could it be?

I'm curious to know Scotland's actual status. Not curious enough to Google it though.

[quote=seosamh77 ]I'd say there's a bit question over whether it's being fast track or retaining membership, we aren't the ones wanting to leave.

Well I'm not wanting to leave either.

You have the issue of timescales - it doesn't seem plausible that a referendum could be held and independence negotiated before the UK leaves the EU. Not given that Scottish independence is rather more complicated than the UK leaving the EU, and those civil servants who might work on the process are going to be rather busy.

Though the point remains that the EU aren't going to be so excited about retaining Scotland as a token of the UK - not enough to make special rules which could cause upset elsewhere. Don't get the idea I'm particularly against you doing so - just being realistic.

[quote=thv3 ]Of course Scotland is a country, and is recognised as such by, well everyone!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Member_states_of_the_United_Nations

If Scotland is a region then what is England?

well see, aracer, no one can be certain about anything at this stage.

Under any test Scotland is a country, it's politically, historically, geographically distinct and has its own legal system, Parliament etc.

Currency? Distinct economy?

Start reading...

http://europa.eu/about-eu/countries/joining-eu/index_en.htm

The 'Conditions for Membership' bit is interesting.

"a functioning market economy and the capacity to cope with competition and market forces in the EU;"

If Scotland is a region then what is England?

[quote=seosamh77 ]well see, aracer, no one can be certain about anything at this stage.

Well no, that's one of the big problems! See how the financial markets reacted to a potential IS last time, and I don't think an independence referendum is going to increase the certainty...

[quote=aracer ]thv3  » Of course Scotland is a country, and is recognised as such by, well everyone!
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Member_states_of_the_United_Nations
br />

A Country is not defined by its currency, otherwise half of the America's that use the dollar would not qualify. The link to the United Nations, includes nations, not countries, and Scotland is represented by the UK.

[url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Country ]Country Wiki [/url]

[url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotland ]Scotland Wiki [/url]

I can't believe whether Scotland is a country or not is in question! 🙁

If Scotland is a region then what is England?

Another region?

Then why do we still refer to it when have the North West, North East, South East etc as regions?

I want to be Scottish, I want to be British, I want to be European. That's why I voted No in the the Independence Referendum.

It now appears that I can only have two out of three.

The game has changed.

I am still Scottish. If offered the choice between being British and being European I will reconsider my options. In a year's time I will have had time to consider all the arguments rationally. Today I'm thinking with my heart and would vote for Independence in Europe.

[quote=thv3 ]The link to the United Nations, includes nations, not countries

Ah, we're into semantics then. The EU is a union of [b]member states[/b] - note the UN URL. Sure the EU might recognise you as a country, but not as a state.

Then why do we still refer to it when have the North West, North East, South East etc as regions?

I really don't know. Is the UK now the country consisting of former countries?

If I was Scottish it would be a no-brainer, stay in the EU. You'd probably get the banks moving more roles to Edinburgh rather than Frankfurt...

Then why do we still refer to it when have the North West, North East, South East etc as regions?

Those areas are actually regions, Scotland is not.

Its like a Scot referring to England as "Down South", you might know what they mean, but it doesn't turn the whole of England into a region.

Ah, we're into semantics then. The EU is a union of member states - note the UN URL. Sure the EU might recognise you as a country, but not as a state.

Except, as per the link above; (> http://europa.eu/about-eu/countries/joining-eu/index_en.htm <)
[i]Becoming a member of the EU is a complex procedure which does not happen overnight. Once an applicant [b]country[/b] meets the conditions for membership, it must implement EU rules and regulations in all areas.[/i]

aracer - Member
seosamh77 » well see, aracer, no one can be certain about anything at this stage.
Well no, that's one of the big problems! See how the financial markets reacted to a potential IS last time, and I don't think an independence referendum is going to increase the certainty...

[quote=thv3 ]Except, as per the link above; (> http://europa.eu/about-eu/countries/joining-eu/index_en.htm <)
Becoming a member of the EU is a complex procedure which does not happen overnight. Once an applicant country meets the conditions for membership, it must implement EU rules and regulations in all areas.

Well in that context they don't recognise you as a country, as already pointed out in the post where the link was given

HTH

You'd probably get the banks moving more roles to Edinburgh rather than Frankfurt...

What is a "role"? Is it a bit like a job?