Scotland Indyref 2

Im just appaled there is no talk of Bueller

I’m told he’s having the day off.

ScotGov subsidises education via balancing the books from the Barnet formula.

And where do you think that Scotland gets most of its budget from? It’s from the UK treasury which has to issue gilts and bonds to cover any deficit.

Saw this on twitter

“f Scotland had always been independent & England wanted a union with the condition they take all our tax, take our oil, gas, £5 billion exports, renewable wind power & the English will decide how much money they give back to us. Would you vote for it? No. So why vote no in 2023?”

Britain decides… Not England. FFS

How about this: if Scotland were utterly bankrupt having spaffed all its money away, and England said they’d bail you out, giving you the opportunity to get rich as part of a global empire, how would you vote?

We need some balance to this argument, is there any folk on here who are in Scotland and in the orange order 😂

if Scotland were utterly bankrupt having spaffed all its money away, and England said they’d bail you out

A reminder…

The UK has often been involved in “bailing out” other countries (eg Ireland 2008/2010), and has also been on the receiving end of bail outs funded by other countries (eg IMF 1976).

Well played, Murdo Fraser, rangers fan and orange order aficionado 😂

Molgrips. No its England decides. We get the uk government england votes for. Scotland hasnt voted tory for 70 years. Nothing we do in Scotland gi es us any options for westminster.

Dominic Raab agrees

Molgrips. No its England decides. We get the uk government england votes for. Scotland hasnt voted tory for 70 years. Nothing we do in Scotland gi es us any options for westminster.

No you get the government that the UK decides, we all do. That’s how it works. You have the same representation as everyone else in the UK. Being Scottish has nothing to do with it.

I’d avoid that line of reasoning if I were you it makes Yes supporters look like nationalistic arseholes.

No molgrips. We get tbe government england decides. We have no say. It mattets not who we vote for. We get the government england votes for

Pleade stop with the ” all nationalusts are nazis” nonsense. Please accept that you do not know enough about Scottish polics to have an opinion

No you get the government that the UK decides, we all do. That’s how it works. You have the same representation as everyone else in the UK. Being Scottish has nothing to do with it.

Scotland hasn’t voted the Tories in since 1955 yet here we are.

We get tbe government england decides. We have no say. It mattets not who we vote for. We get the government england votes for

Scotland hasn’t voted the Tories in since 1955 yet here we are.

These statements are only relevant if you think that Scotland is somehow not part of one big country called the UK and, as I said a couple of pages ago, you are never going to win over someone who sees it like that. To be fair to @molgrips, he doesn’t have anything against Scotland per se he just doesn’t like borders at all. Quite how he would feel if, say, Germany had won WW2 and we were all speaking German, or if we abolished all borders today, voted in a worlwide government and found we were all being forced to learn Chinese with all other cultures being extinguished, I don’t know.

Quite how he would feel if, say, Germany had won WW2 and we were all speaking German, or if we abolished all borders today, voted in a worlwide government and found we were all being forced to learn Chinese with all other cultures being extinguished, I don’t know.

That’s really not the same as the situation with Scotland. It’s exactly this kind of emotive bollocks that spoils the entire debate.

A lot of people in Scotland don’t like the current government. Well, I can sympathise – neither do I, nor do a lot of English, Welsh and Northern Irish people.

Scotland hasn’t voted the Tories in since 1955 yet here we are.

I haven’t voted Tory since ever and yet here I am too.

Look – in my view it is legitimate to say “I don’t like how the UK is run, I personally want out”. When you start saying “Scotland this and Scotland that” that’s what makes my skin crawl. I mean, for the last 300 years Scotland has been in the UK, just like Wales, Northumbria, Kent and all the rest. But some Scots are now evoking the worst kind of human sentiment to try and justify independence when you don’t even need to.

Like I said earlier, I’m sympathetic – I might even be a supporter – but I cannot abide this kind of division of shared humanity. That’s why I despise Brexit after all.

Please accept that you do not know enough about Scottish polics to have an opinion

Please accept that I DO know about humanity and history and that this is clearly not all about politics. It’s the political part I am sympathetic towards.

I cannot abide this kind of division of shared humanity

Is it about “division” now though? An indie Scotland could work together with the rest of Europe… they are surrounded by countries working together to minimise borders and help people live, work and love together. Apart from one. Perhaps a smaller UK would follow them in that path, or it could just turn against Scotland, and everyone else… that’s not Scotland’s call… it’s the UK government’s call.

It won’t come as a surprise Molgrips but, I don’t agree.
Our shared humanity will remain whether Scotland votes for independence or not. What we’re asserting is our belief that Scots(people who live in Scotland) know how to govern Scotland best and that we have a right to elect our own government.

Scots are now evoking the worst kind of human sentiment to try and justify independence when you don’t even need to.

I’d argue that now is the time we very much need to.

No molgrips. We get tbe government england decides. We have no say. It mattets not who we vote for. We get the government england votes for

You get the same vote as anyone living in England. So you get EXACTLY the same say as anyone living in England or Wales (if we ignore minor differences in constituency size).

As a collective or a nation (which is always a kind of fiction), you do have half a point though, but we could break off any arbitrary part of the UK (such as Manchester, or East Anglia) and use exactly the same argument.

In fact, Scotland enjoys an autonomy (thanks to devolution) that England doesn’t. No English MP can vote on matters devolved to Hollyrood but Scottish MPs regularly get a say on matters that only pertain to England.

Much as I still consider Manchester my home city… it’s not a country. And it’s patronising to say you consider Scotland the same as a region of England. It really is not. I hope the people of Scotland vote to keep the union with England, but I think we need to change how the UK works to win them around. Just telling them they’re stuck with the status quo, and have no right to self determination beyond that of an English city or country, will move people towards a yes vote.

Scotland is somehow not part of one big country called the UK

it isn’t a big country called the UK. It is a political union. Hence why you have NI, England, Wales and Scotland. We are all separate countries with Scots law being different from rGB and NI.

it isn’t a big country called the UK. It is a political union. Hence why you have NI, England, Wales and Scotland. We are all separate countries with Scots law being different from rGB and NI.

That’s a semantic point open to several interpretations and I’m ready to accept that not everyone agrees with yours and mine – though it may come down to the courts having to settle it at some point.

Britain decides… Not England. FFS

Your premise is wrong.

Britain is England, England is London.

To be exact, The City of London.

Scots are now evoking the worst kind of human sentiment to try and justify independence when you don’t even need to.

There again is the “all nationalists are nazis”

Its obvious that you just do not understand what is actually happening in Scotland

Its not about getting away from anything and rspecially not just this government. Its about wanting to have a government that represents us and acts in our best interests. Its about being able to create policy that suits Scotland.

Its about self determination

Its NOT about hatred of others

It’s worth reflecting on words for a moment.

On face value at least, it’s the Scottish National Party, not the Scottish Nationalist Party, and in terms of their aims, they would be better described as nationists not nationalists.

Now they may be lying to everyone, and I’m sure some of them absolutely are nationalists, but their stated aim is to establish a self-governed nation, not to exclude everyone without 15 generations of Scots heritage.

The “it’s not where you’re from, it’s where we’re going” slogan is, if true, an excellent one.  It’s inclusive, it’s anti-nationalist and it’s pro-nation.

So the question really comes down to do you believe them?
If you do, they are not just more palatable than UKIP, EDL, BNP or Reform UK, they are offering a completely different vision of Scotland’s future to the equivalent version of the UK’s future offered by those four.
if you don’t, then maybe they’re just another bunch of nationalists, the only remaining question is how swivel-eyed.

PS – technically the line was the one below – which is arguably even better. One still has to believe it and walk the talk of course

It’s not where we came from that’s important, it’s where we’re going together.

The “it’s not where you’re from, it’s where we’re going” slogan is, if true,

Its part of a quote from Bashir Ahmed the first muslim msp. He was born outside Scotland.
He was given a standing ovation

It shows clearly the difference in attitudes with English nationalism. Can ypu imagine this sentiment going down well in English nationalist gruops?

it isn’t important where you come from, what matters is where we are going together as a nation”.[4]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bashir_Ahmad_(Sc

There again is the “all nationalists are nazis”

Its obvious that you just do not understand what is actually happening in Scotland

Listen. I am calling out that line of argument when I see it on here. There are good reasons to vote Yes, but that’s not one of them. Do you understand what I’m saying?

we have a right to elect our own government

But you already do, just like I do.

No we dont molgrips. We have tory governments imposed on us. One tecent tory government got 15% of the vote in Scotland. Its not representative democracy

Yes molgrips i do understand your point but it is based on a false understanding of Scottish politics. Its irrelevant because the sentiment you opposed is also opposed by Scottish nationalism.

Molgrips – I’m still trying to work out what your obsession with this subject is (obsession maybe a bit strong, but judged by you being the most frequent poster on this not currently living in Scotland). Is it just that you are anti Scottish independence? Some of your posts sound a tiny bit sour grapes – you clearly have a lot in common with many pro Scottish independence (politically liberal, with a significant distaste for our tory overlords and the direction they are taking the UK) – is it that those north of the border are striving for something not realistically available to you? Or is it that when (if) Scotland becomes independent the centre of gravity of remainder of the UK will inevitably be even more SE England and tory voter centric and you see that as a bad thing for you and the rest of the UK? That you see us as effectively wanting to run away and leave you to it?

I wish I had the skills to articulate where I stand on this, unfortunately I do not. I agree hugely with molgrips. However, I believe that the country that I would like to live in would have very similar politics and values as Scotroutes, Tjagain and molgrips desire – there is little that separates us in that regard.
As molgrips says there is an appeal to Scottish independence. I would sooner we had a UK that worked for everyone’s best, but can understand those that feel an independent Scotland is the only way to achieve this in their lifetime. I am almost won over.
However, when the pro independence side continually paint a rosey picture of every scenario and dismiss any difficulties, my knee jerk reaction is to turn away.

[As I said, not well articulated.]

I thought that molgrips was quite clear that he abhors borders of any sort and that he therefore does not recognise the authority of the Scots people to conduct their own affairs.

However, when the pro independence side continually paint a rosey picture of every scenario and dismiss any difficulties

I don’t think that anyone is realistically doing that.

Can I just say that this is a very interesting thread and I am learning a lot. (It is a shame this is a binary thing yes/no which means you have to pick a side)

Let’s keep it nice, and not ruin it like the other political threads please?

Gauss

I get your point but its in part a perception created by a universally hostile media. It not whats said by the snp.

Molgrips. My point is you are seeing things that aren’t there and then shhoting at them. The blood and soil nationalism you abhor is not a significant part of the wider independence movement and is not snp attitudes as the ahmed quote and reaction to it shows

Has anyone brought up the secret oil field under Glasgow yet? The one that David Cameron was keeping secret to undermine Scotland’s economic prospects. I enjoyed arguing with taxi drivers about that one the last time round.

we have a right to elect our own government

But you already do, just like I do.

No we dont molgrips. We have tory governments imposed on us. One tecent tory government got 15% of the vote in Scotland. Its not representative democracy

Well, to my mind, you are both correct. The problem for me, with your argument tjagain, is when do you stop? Keep splitting up areas until they vote as you’d like? Because once you’ve got an independent Scotland, a large number within Scotland will feel unrepresented – it is how democracy works as far as I can see.

According to Wikipedia 25% of Scots voting in the last GE got exactly the national government they wanted.

(It is a shame this is a binary thing yes/no which means you have to pick a side)

Very much so. A UK government offering a federal approach is the non-binary option, but that isn’t gathering any steam… because… we have a UK government (and their supporters) who just say “shut up, we have more important things to do”.