Glasgow sell out their ground most games

And capacity is what 7.5k?

Where / who else would the welsh play? An 8 team welsh league?

Well if the two Scottish teams left the Pro14 tomorrow it might still keep going. If the Welsh or the Irish left would the same happen?
Look at which games get the best attendances.

Oh God are we going to have to endure another season of AA being pessimistic about everything to do with Welsh rugby?

Quite optimistic about Scarlets actually. Shame Davies the 7 is broken though, still gives Boyd a chance. Hoping to see Ryan Elias break into the Wales set up in the Autumn.

Pigface – I can make up for it with unbridled optimism if you like? 😉 at least until the AIs

Without a British league or Euro league the pro game in Wales below international level will soon be dead it cannot compete with the Aviva or the French league.

That will make no difference at all. Without substantial investment the Welsh teams will never compete with England or France (or Scotland or Ireland). It’s been the same since the game went professional and it’s getting worse. When second tier English teams have better teams and facilities than top level Welsh teams it’s time to worry.

It would be a start if the WRU could kick start our second division, but that’s another story

That will make no difference at all. Without substantial investment the Welsh teams will never compete with England or France (or Scotland or Ireland).

Its chicken and egg though, without a marketable product who will invest?

It would be a start if the WRU could kick start our second division, but that’s another story

They only seem to care about Team Wales, mind you how long until Gatlands law is gone?

The welsh teams have the same funding streams as the others – indeed should have more due to bigger crowds / more sponsorship opportunities. They are not financially disadvatge4d compared to the scots. Indeed its only the last couple of seasons the scots have been able to match them

Anyway the Celtic league, Pr12 and now the Pro14 are just going through a slow and extended death wriggle

I hope this isn’t true for many reasons. I can’t ever see the PRL agreeing to a british/irish or euro league, they have nothing to gain from it. On top of that (and despite fridays game…) the AP is a fantastic “product” so to be honest I wouldn’t like to see it either.
The top14 can be a success, but it’s dependent on rugby fans of the individual nations to make it so.

The top14 can be a success, but it’s dependent on rugby fans of the individual nations to make it so.

I’m not sure thats the case. The derbies are very well attended so each countries fans back their team. Its big problem for me is the lack of relegation and lack of competition for Euro Cup spots. Its improved in Wales since only 2 go through but the competition is only with the welsh which compounds the issue that the derbies are the big games. The irish send weakened teams abroad (and admittedly mostly still win!) and Glasgow need only beat Edinburgh in the table to qualify. Its just not competitive enough between the countries to generate intrest.

The welsh teams have the same funding streams as the others – indeed should have more due to bigger crowds / more sponsorship opportunities. They are not financially disadvatge4d compared to the scots. Indeed its only the last couple of seasons the scots have been able to match them

If there was a point this misses it!

AA – its now the top 3 in each conference to go into Europe – no guaranteed places for any nation. I think this is wrong but it answers your question

As for “weakened” teams – all clubs have to rotate and certainly the scots consider player welfare more than the ap – see the complaints from the ap players rep about burnout / overlong seasons. Players can only play 25 or so games a season – 8 0r 9 internationals, half a dozen euroipean games and there are not many games left for them to play inthe league. The answer is to copy Leinster and to some extent Glasgow who do not have a first team plus subs but have 2 players in each position who can interchange without any great loss of quality. Do this and you don’t have a weakened team for any game. I think this is one area the welsh fall down on. Too much emphasis is placed on keeping the stars in wales which means not enough money left for decent squad players. Letting Biggar go frees up funds for two or more youngsters to come thru.

Look at the great youngsters coming thru in Scotland – unless senior players move on their is no space for these youngsters to develop on grow into. If laidlaw had stayed at Glasgow Price / Pyrgos would not have been able to develop and gain the experience. Russell going next season will allow Hastings to step into his shoes ( although I would have preferred Russell to stay another couple of years)

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/sep/09/christian-day-players-concerns-rfu-plans-prolong-season

The welsh teams have the same funding streams as the others – indeed should have more due to bigger crowds / more sponsorship opportunities.

That last bit suggests that you have no idea of how economically disadvantaged Wales actually is. The Welsh teams get sponsored by smallish local companies normally, not huge companies.

Too much emphasis is placed on keeping the stars in wales which means not enough money left for decent squad players

You keep saying this but it doesnt make it true. Faletau, Charteris and Williams were for example playing in one aviva game this week as well as solid club players like Day and Priestland. Others like Moriarty, North, Roberts, Luke Hmilton, Owen Williams, Tom Young, Adam Jones, Hibbard and Tom Francis. Not to mention half the Bristol team.

Letting Biggar go frees up funds for two or more youngsters to come thru.

Just make the Pro14 a junior league then without top players why should people go and watch? No one goes to see the Scottish teams anyway. Scotland can fund two teams to bring on younger players in a poor league but without 4 irish and 4 welsh teams to play they’d be screwed. The welsh supporters want something more than that.

I think you are missing the cold hard fact that the English teams don’t want you AA. One Welsh team would possibly survive in the Prem, the rest would be in the championship,initially at least. And you still wouldn’t have any money, who is going to invest in the Welsh regions under those circumstances? Glasgow are an example of how to grow a club from scratch, I don’t know why the WRU is getting it so wrong.

its now the top 3 in each conference to go into Europe –

This is a step in the right direction but with 7 in each conference 1 in each cannot qualify as they are SA and another 1 is a hopless Italian team that leaves 3 from 5 with another best loser. Still too many games will be lacking bite and with glasgo play edinburgh how many times? It still means Glasgow can make hay v Edinburgh to qualify. Its all too contrived.

idlejohn – you think the welsh have less opportunities for sponsorship that the scots?

AA – its not about making it a junior league – its about using your money wisely and developing players. With the budgets we have in the pro 12 we simply cannot afford 30 top notch players. ~Glasgow spend their money on a wide squad not a few stars – so Glasgow can generally remain competitive in all competitions. spend all your money on a dozen stars then you can’t afford a competitive squad. with a playing budget of around 4 million we cannot afford a dozen players on half a million each and still have a competitive squad

You say you want better – but what option is? a welsh only league of 8 or so teams? the ap are not going to let you in and a british and irish league is a non starter a both options would mean some english teams dropping out of the top flight.

I think you are missing the cold hard fact that the English teams don’t want you AA.

As I have said many times I expect you are right, but what will happen to the Scots teams if pro rugby in Wales dies?

Glasgow are an example of how to grow a club from scratch, I don’t know why the WRU is getting it so wrong.

This. Glasgow is a football town and didn’t ever have a top flight club. Until 3 years ago they didn’t even have their own ground. Now they have had to put up more stands as they sold out the 5000 seats regularly and now are selling out 7000. all this on a similar budget to the welsh teams. ( certainly less a few years ago, perhaps a little more now)

anagallis_arvensis – Member

As I have said many times I expect you are right, but what will happen to the Scots teams if pro rugby in Wales dies?

We would survive but be damaged. the pro 14 would survive. I would expect some more european teams to join. Perhaps a couple of georgian ones, romanian ones, maybe Germany and spain., Maybe even the USA / canada

With the budgets we have in the pro 12 we simply cannot afford 30 top notch players.

No shit Sherlock, so why go watch it?

Glasgow spend their money on a wide squad not a few stars

Is the implication that the Welsh teams are packed full of star players? Who are they I’ve missed them.

so Glasgow can generally remain competitive in all competitions

6th in last years Pro12 was a piss poor effort and they didnt get far in the Champions Cup either.

You say you want better – but what option is? a welsh only league of 8 or so teams?

If we cannot be competitive in Europe then yes..maybe not 8 though but make it a proper youth development league.

all this on a similar budget to the welsh teams. ( certainly less a few years ago, perhaps a little more now)

Can you tell me what the budgets are? A couple of years ago the Welsh teams had lower budgets than even the Italians. I doubt it’s improved.

Its been done to death. Aa put some figures up earlier in this thread but its a bit comparing apples to oranges as nbo transparant figures are disclosed. The welsh teams have significantly more than the italians, around the same as the scots and a bit less than the top 3 irish. the scots were the poor relations a few years ago but have now caught up with the welsh and mabe overtaken them slightly.

Its around 4 million a year on player saleries perhaps a bit more. remember that some welsh players are partly paid for by the WRU

the welsh have never been less funded than ther italians.

the welsh have never been less funded than ther italians.

We don’t know the real figures so I’m not going to argue. 🙂

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/how-much-funding-welsh-rugby-12405682.amp

Three Welsh regions on 5, Glasgow on 5.1. Not a funding gap really.

Remember that I am not really worried about the gap between Wales and Scotland as we dont lose players to Scottish teams and we do pretty much as well if not better than them anyway. Thats not the issue.

How are yo ever going to match the 10 million plus of the top ap teams or the 15 millionplus of the french?

As a_a says, the main issue is how to compete with, for instance, French teams on a 10m budget. Interesting figures though.

How are yo ever going to match the 10 million plus of the top ap teams or the 15 millionplus of the french?

We cant thats why its dying a slow death and why I’d rather see welsh teams play other welsh teams in a development league and then let the top welsh players go abroad.
I watched The Dregs play Edinburgh infront of 250 people in Edinburgh and it was shite, folliwed by Scarlets destroy Zebre away whilst resting their best players..whats the point.

Does anyone else think the refereeing of the breakdown (particularly rucks) has been really inconsistent in AP this weekend?

I know it’s early days in term of the law changes but both players and referees seem to be unclear on what’s required – Friday’s game was possibly the worst with players yards offside but all 4 games I’ve seen have had examples of inconsistent reffing.

On a separate point I also think Schalk Brits was right to feel hard done by when he gave away a penalty after the Bath the scrum half deliberately passed the ball into him – that’s really negative rugby that shouldn’t be rewarded imo.

3500 was the actual attendance

Its only the welsh wqho complain about ther pro 14. No one else even the couple of italian fans I am in contact with

Do you really think tyhe ap teams do not rotate? Glasgow do not play weakened sides anyway – rotating their 30 first team players. Its not really a weakened team they send even for the italians. the only irreplaceable player is ickle jonny – and he is out injured. every other position glasgow have at least 2 plyers of similar standard. thats my point. the welsh teams have a first 15 plus subs, glasgow, Leinster etc have 30 first teamplayers so can rotate without being weakened

Does anyone else think the refereeing of the breakdown (particularly rucks) has been really inconsistent in AP this weekend?

How dare you talk about actual rugby..

Didnt see any AP but the SA ref in the Edinburgh v Dregs games was very good I thought but that idiot who did Scarlets Zebre was shit and the difference in the way the breakdown was reffed was marked.

Talking about rugby 😉 Glasgow have mad McMata the weegie from Fiji back! ~can he do his magic again?

I agree about the SA ref – I thought him very good.

anagallis_arvensis – Member

How dare you talk about actual rugby..

Sorry – didn’t mean to interrupt an AA / TJ arguathon…

Its aninteresting debate is it not? It is to me. 🙂 However it has run its course perhaps. I am seeking to understand why the welsh fans seem to view the pro 14 so negatively

So how about mad Mc Mata? ( Niko Matowalo)

I am seeking to understand why the welsh fans seem to view the pro 14 so negatively

It’s not something I’ve noticed in my day to day conversations about rugby. Most of the really keen fans watch more than Pro 14 games so can compare. (We tend to be negative about the awful performances of three quarters of the Welsh teams every year though.) I don’t know anyone who watches the AP in preference to the Pro 14. Is it just an internet ‘thing’?

every other position glasgow have at least 2 plyers of similar standard.

Sorry Fin Russel and Jackson are a similar standard? Are you on crack?

Still waiting for some evidence that the welsh regions spend all their money on a few star players cause the welsh are well stupid innit like! Show us ewer sauces!

Scarlets obviously blew their budget on Hadley Parkes and Taigde Byrne. Davies is their only real star player, 1/2p was no doubt got on the cheap as his star had fallen and Toulon **** him.
Ospreys have AWJ who I dont think has wanted to move away and Biggar is leaving and Webb too maybe
Blues have…… Captain Sam who given the fact he is perma crocked I doubt many would want him.
Its hardly star studded.

Edit.

Hang on forgot The Dragons they have…… er no stars

I don’t know anyone who watches the AP in preference to the Pro 14

Me neither, I dont watch AP. Watch a lot of Pro14. Doesnt make it that good or sustainable though.

anagallis_arvensis – Member

every other position glasgow have at least 2 plyers of similar standard.

Sorry Fin Russel and Jackson are a similar standard? Are you on crack?

Jackson is there as a 15 only – back up to Hoggba. Back up 10s are Horne who is not as good as Russell but a handy player and can play the same gameplan which is the key thing. Hastings is the 3rd 10 but will probably overtake Horne this year and looks to be a superb player and could well be better than Russell in a couple of years

Still waiting for some evidence that the welsh regions spend all their money on a few star players

Its my mpression and one possible explanation for the lack of squad depth the welsh teams seem to have. Maybe I am wrong but when you look at the welsh teams the alternate players seem a lot poorer than the first 15. maybe its just bad rfecruitment.

I don’t know anyone who watches the AP in preference to the Pro 14. Is it just an internet ‘thing’?

I do, but I’m English. When I’ve caught some of the Pro 12/14 I’ve always been surprised by the crowds or lack of. Even Worcester manage 7,000 or so.