Right to be peeved? Kids nativity content

This priest need to be named because if he is converting people with one prayer, he will be very in demand.

From the document you linked to:

“An approach seeking to convert an audience to one faith or another is not appropriate in the non-denominational sector”

I’ve highlighted the important bit.

A prayer is neither an act of worship, nor is it seeking to convert people.

A prayer is neither an act of worship, nor is it seeking to convert people.

He wasn’t praying by himself, he gave a sermon then invited everyone to pray with him.

Or, actually, just assumed we all would. It wasn’t “would anyone like to pray with me”, it was “let us pray”.

Just for the record:

Atheism isn’t the absence of belief in anything. Its a very definite position saying there is no god.

Agnosticism on the other hand is a position saying, there is no proof for the existence of god and no proof that he doesn’t exist either. Which is much closer to an absence of belief.

Its perfectly possible to indoctrinate (i.e. teach) someone into either position if you exclude the others.

FWIW most atheists are agnostics, they just don’t realise it!

A prayer is neither an act of worship, nor is it seeking to convert people.

worship
/?w????p/

noun

1.

the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity.

I’ll leave others to judge whether or not prayers include expressions of reverence or adoration of a deity.

Well, really, atheism is saying “there is no god” in the same way as saying “there’s no chocolate teapot in orbit around Saturn”.

It’s microscopically, infinitesimally theoretically possible, but all reason and logic goes against it.

It’s not saying there’s no god as a belief without facts.

Atheism isn’t the absence of belief in anything. Its a very definite position saying there is no god.

Agnosticism on the other hand is a position saying, there is no proof for the existence of god and no proof that he doesn’t exist either. Which is much closer to an absence of belief.

No, that’s completely wrong. The etymology of “atheism” is a strong clue…

Bencooper,
Good on you; I’d like to think I’d have done the same, if it wasn’t for my highly-developed level of apathy. I hope the result isn’t low-level ostracization of you or your child(ren).

It wasn’t “would anyone like to pray with me”, it was “let us pray”.

But the let us pray thing is a turn of phrase, saying ‘would anyone like to pray with me’ would be daft as some would say yes, some would say no and mass confusion would break out. By saying ‘let us pray’ the fella just meant ‘let those that want to pray with me crack on and do so’. His way was much quicker and less confusing (for most).

Jambala – member, preached; Cougar, not believing anything (ie as you where born) is not atheism, athiesm in my belief meams positively disbelieving

Agnosticism is the belief that we cannot know for certain whether a god or gods exist. Babies are born without beliefs. Therefore, since atheism merely requires the lack of a belief, while agnosticism requires the presence of a belief, babies automatically meet the definition of atheism but not of agnosticism.

Source
Jambalaya, what’s that, the fifth time, EVER, that you’ve been wrong? 😉

I’m confused, and can no longer be bothered to catch up with the various points being made in this discussion.

A few final comments from me, though…

@cougar:

This is why “why do atheists celebrate Christmas, bunch of hypocrites” is fallacious. We atheists don’t celebrate Christmas because yay Jesus, we celebrate it because it’s a national holiday. And because, y’know, it’s nice to give gifts to people and remind our loved ones how much we care about them

100% agreed. I didn’t read through the whole thread, but I have never bought into the idea that atheists or anyone else should not be able to celebrate what they see Christmas to be. So please do have a very happy one.

And the same goes for all of you.

There’s no need to provide atheist indoctrination as, unlike theism, they’re already born with it. And in the hypothetical event that I reproduce I would be teaching my child critical thinking; I would be teaching them to question the world rather than believing everything they hear.

If I’m successful there then I won’t need to tell them religion is a set of stories and superstitions, they’ll work out for themselves whether it is or not.

Devils advocate:
Doesn’t that make the huge assumption that they will come to the same conclusion as you, and you are irrefutably correct.

There’s a huge amount of things we can’t explain yet as we only understand a tiny amount of how the universe works, if someone came to you and said I know <5% about something, but I don’t need to know the other 95+% as I already know the answers you would laugh at them or assume they were a teenager.

Regarding Atheists and Christmas, only curious thing is why they call it Christmas; and not the winter break like some US companies

There’s a huge amount of things we can’t explain yet as we only understand a tiny amount of how the universe works, if someone came to you and said I know <5% about something, but I don’t need to know the other 95+% as I already know the answers you would laugh at them or assume they were a teenager.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_of_the_gaps

There’s a huge amount of things we can’t explain yet as we only understand a tiny amount of how the universe works, if someone came to you and said I know <5% about something, but I don’t need to know the other 95+% as I already know the answers you would laugh at them or assume they were a teenager.

The usual “atheist” position would be we still have a lot to learn. The position that we only know 5% and the rest is the work of a sky fairy is much more laughable.

@Cougar, not believing anything (ie as you where born) is not atheism, athiesm in my belief meams positively disbelieving

Somewhat appropriately perhaps, what you believe is irrelevant.

First hit on Google for Atheism, “Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.”

FWIW most atheists are agnostics, they just don’t realise it!

We’ve done this before, it’s a popular tool amongst some theists used to gain what small bit of concession they can from the non-believers. The argument goes something like, “it’s not possible to know, therefore you must be agnostic by definition.” IIRC, poster boy atheist for (theists and almost no-one else) Richard Dawkins agrees with this and identifies as agnostic.

Whilst the position is sound, it’s a technicality. Whilst I cannot disprove the existence of a god or gods because it’s impossible to prove a negative, there is little compelling evidence that such a thing exists for all practical purposes. We’re back to Russell’s teapot again, or invisible tiny unicorns living in my skirting board. Ergo I’m certain beyond reasonable doubt that there is no god, and I identify as atheist. The burden of proof is not mine, anything else is special pleading.

Atheists and Christmas, only curious thing is why they call it Christmas; and not the winter break like some US companies

I call it Christmas because that way everyone knows what I’m talking about, and I (generally) avoid getting labelled a militant atheist that way. The date I really celebrate is the 22nd though, when we get over the hill! Can’t bloody wait!

Spot on, Cougar, again.

Atheists and Christmas, only curious thing is why they call it Christmas; and not the winter break like some US companies

Why do Christians call Easter Easter?

Cougar, if this were a real pub, I’d buy you a drink.

A lot of this thread and the definitions of agnostic / atheist etc are a bit in depth for me.

However, I do know a lad who went to a wedding in a church where a lot of the regular congregation attended weddings. When the bit came to exchange a sign of peace (with the handshake and ‘peace be with you’) he started to do the Vulcan sign and saying “live long and prosper”.

Doesn’t that make the huge assumption that they will come to the same conclusion as you, and you are irrefutably correct.

Not at all. They may grow up to disagree with me. That’s fine, I’d rather have free-thinking kids (even if they’re wrong) than kids who blindly believe any old pish they read on the Internet are told by people in positions of relative power.

There’s a huge amount of things we can’t explain yet as we only understand a tiny amount of how the universe works,

Absolutely. So? Just because we don’t know something doesn’t mean we get to make up any old horseshit and parade it around as fact. That’s the sort of wooly thinking that gets people eaten.

Regarding Atheists and Christmas, only curious thing is why they call it Christmas; and not the winter break like some US companies

Because that’s what it’s called. Renaming it “winter break” is a liberal way of trying too hard not to offend people who almost certainly wouldn’t have been offended in the first place, and if are offended can bloody well be offended. What’s next, renaming Easter “Eggmas”? Insanity of the highest order, get in the sea.

I can’t handle more than one big-hitterthon today, sorry folks. Too much work to do. But:

What’s next, renaming Easter “Eggmas”?

Easter is already its pagan name 🙂

However, I do know a lad who went to a wedding in a church where a lot of the regular congregation attended weddings. When the bit came to exchange a sign of peace (with the handshake and ‘peace be with you’) he started to do the Vulcan sign and saying “live long and prosper”.

Damn it, that’s genius, I wish I’d thought of that when I was writing my vows last year.

I have never bought into the idea that atheists or anyone else should not be able to celebrate what they see Christmas to be. So please do have a very happy one.

Amen!

Oh, shit.

The usual “atheist” position would be we still have a lot to learn. The position that we only know 5% and the rest is the work of a sky fairy is much more laughable.

To make any definite conclusion with 5% knowledge is laughable isn’t it?

Renaming it “winter break” is a liberal way of trying too hard not to offend people who almost certainly wouldn’t have been offended in the first place, and if are offended can bloody well be offended.

I’m not so sure of the ‘wouldn’t have been offended bit’, is that not what started the thread in the first place 🙂

@Gary M, I don’t think Ben was offended, I think he was a little concerned. I certainly would be if I thought that my boys were in danger of indoctrination. I’m sure he’ll clarify.

To make any definite conclusion with 5% knowledge is laughable isn’t it?

And yet, some people believe absolutely that god did it. Laughable, did you say?

And yet, some people believe absolutely that god did it. Laughable, isn’t it.

They’re just as mental as the people who believe absolutely that he didn’t…

Personally I have no **** idea, however I’m not completely happy with ‘we just happened’ and the laws of thermodynamics seem to imply that’s not possible (however googling for rational debate on that sends you to some crazy right wing US sites) unless the universe is infinite which is a huge leap of faith of FSM levels.

A long one, but this video is a helpful reference point when trying to remember the difference between theism, agnosticism, and atheism:

This – https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism#Concepts – really is interesting stuff. All the different flavours of Atheism in one easy article…

If I hadn’t been hanging out the back of the bike sheds with all the other cool kids I might have done GCSE RE.

This is as relevant as half the posts so:

Merry Christmas, whatever it means to you all, & don’t f*ck with the Jesus.

@Gary M, I don’t think Ben was offended, I think he was a little concerned. I certainly would be if I thought that my boys were in danger of indoctrination. I’m sure he’ll clarify.

Yes, I wasn’t offended in the slightest. Just peeved that we might have to unbrainwash the offspring.

Edit: that’s brilliant 😉

Yes, I wasn’t offended in the slightest. Just peeved that we might have to unbrainwash the offspring.

That priest must have been awesome if he can convert a room in a single short sermon… are you sure it wasn’t Darren Brown in disguise?

Personally I have no **** idea, however I’m not completely happy with ‘we just happened’

Sure. But the problem with “god did it” as an answer is that it’s not actually an answer, it’s just a diversion. Look.
[list]
[*]”I can’t believe we ‘just happened’, there must be more to it than that, where did we come from?”[/*]

[*]”Well, we were created by an invisible supernatural being we like to call ‘God’.”[/*]

[*]”Ah, that explains it, cool. But where did this ‘God’ fellow come from?”[/*]

[*]”Oh, he just happened.”[/*][/list]

You see? We’ve not actually answered the question, we’ve just moved the goalposts. If design is a prerequisite for intelligent life (and that’s a whole other can of billy bollocks, why would any intelligent designer give us an appendix for a start?) then surely by that argument god must have been designed also. Maybe your gods have their own gods who created them? Is it turtles all the way down?

And of course, if design isn’t a prerequisite for intelligent the whole argument is moot anyway. If god can ‘just be’ then so can we.

Loving that the phrase ‘let us pray’ was so shocking and divisive it caused a sanctimonious email.

Also loving the cougar and his dialectical diatribes. Short story: I like going to church occassionally, dont believe in a sky fairy. Vicar (Anglo Catholic so no c of e milquetoast) once delivered a sermon where he stated that it was only his recent retirement that had triggered his movement from ear atheism to agnosticism. Summary: the people you are setting yourself against aren’t who you think they are.

I’m not completely happy with ‘we just happened’ and the laws of thermodynamics seem to imply that’s not possible

There is only misunderstanding/confusion of the laws of thermodynamics, because creationists try to represent them as open systems.

“Atheists and Christmas, only curious thing is why they call it Christmas”
Probably the same reason Christians refer to “the lords day ” as Sunday even though they don’t worship the God it is named for.

And yet, some people believe absolutely that god did it. Laughable, did you say?

They call it ‘faith’ for a reason. They call themselves believers, not knowers.

Is believing in Intelligent design a prerequisite to believing in god?

Could you not believe ‘something’ started the big bang, and then we are just a happy coincidence and the result of evolution/selective breeding.

There is only misunderstanding/confusion of the laws of thermodynamics, because creationists try to represent them as open systems.

What confusion? I thought the issue was we don’t live in an open system unless you are happy with the concept of infinite.