Right to be peeved? Kids nativity content

I genuinely don’t know what you were expecting. It’s not just a story. It’s the cornerstone of one of the largest religions in the world. A religion that millions believe in. Including some at the school no doubt. so if you’re not bothered by the stories influence then why are you bothered about some bloke standing up and talking about it too.
If your kids can make their own mind up then what’s the fuss. If they’re allowed to decide for themselves then they need to hear it. Just the same as they should hear your point of view. I know which one I think they’d give the most weight.

If you celebrate Christmas you’re a hypocrite. Right. Nice one.

Most of these ‘christian’ festivals just replace earlier pagan (NB pagan in this context is used both literally and as shortform to mean “earlier than protestant/RC” – i learn my lessons me!) ones anyway. Chances are you christians are actually celebrating a pagan (see note above) festival.

So who’s the hypocrite again?

Edit – OK, ransos and bencooper beat me to it. Must type faster!

There’s a lot of people not actually reading/understanding what the OP’s objection was and jumping to conclusions.

In case you need someone else to highlight it.

His objection is NOT to the nativity play
His objection is NOT to it having (necessary) Christian content
His objection is NOT to celebrating a story/holiday/religious festival

His objection IS to a minster leading an act of worship in a secular School.

It’s not about being anti-theist, it’s about NOT being theist in a secular environment*.

I’f you’re going to judge at least judge on his actual complaint.

*by all means allow the minster to invite people who are inclined to follow him back to his church for a service afterwards to learn more about the Christian interpretation of the story, but that’s an entirely different thing, and even then I would hope other faiths were given this opportunity at other celebrations.

I genuinely don’t know what you were expecting.

This has been covered in some detail.

I genuinely don’t know what you were expecting.

I was expecting a lovely nativity play with cute little kids singing badly. That’s what we got, and it was great.

It’s the cornerstone of one of the largest religions in the world. A religion that millions believe in. Including some at the school no doubt.

So exactly like Buddhism, Islam, Judaism etc. Which it should have been treated the same as.

I genuinely don’t know what you were expecting. It’s not just a story. It’s the cornerstone of one of the largest religions in the world. A religion that millions believe in. Including some at the school no doubt. so if you’re not bothered by the stories influence then why are you bothered about some bloke standing up and talking about it too.

Equally true if a muslim preacher tried to convert the kids during a celebration of Eid.

I don’t believe in god so you can’t have a present? Good one.

If you want to educate your kids properly then yes that’s the stance you should be taking. So rather than being a bit mamby pamby and outraged at religion being mentioned at school you should have had that touch conversation with the kid. ‘Sorry we don’t believe in religion junior so you’re not getting a present today.’

His objection IS to a minster leading an act of worship in a secular School.

.

This.

what were the pop songs?

…only in the fevered imagination of the Daily Mail. Teaching children about religious and cultural festivals is part of their education, trying to convert them isn’t.

Seem appropriate as this thread is very ‘Daily Mail’ knee jerk.

Ben does seem to be correct however looking at the guidelines, so if something could be construed to be an attempt at ‘conversion’, then it should be stopped and I guess it would reduce the workloads on the teachers 🙂

To be fair however they should ban all plays, just incase it offends someone.

what were the pop songs?

Oh, I don’t know – modern stuff, not the classics like “When Shepherds Wash Their Socks By Night” 😀

Well Ben – since you want to quote guidelines, I’ll trump you with Government Circular 1/94, which is still Extant:

All maintained schools must provide religious education and daily collective worship for all registered pupils and promote their spiritual, moral and cultural development.

Local agreed RE syllabuses for county schools and equivalent grant- maintained schools must in future reflect the fact that religious traditions in the country are in the main Christian whilst taking account of the teaching and practices of other principal religions. Syllabuses must be periodically reviewed.

Collective worship in county schools and equivalent grant-maintained schools must be wholly or mainly of a broadly Christian character, though not distinctive of any particular Christian denomination.

The parental right of withdrawal from RE and collective worship and the safeguards for teachers are unchanged. Local bodies advise on RE and collective worship and recommend new RE syllabuses. They represent faith groups, teachers, the LEA and grant- maintained schools.

So, you’ll find that the school are quite clearly following the law, as set out in the School Standards and Framework Act 1998, Schedule 20

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1998/31/schedule/20

I’m kind surprised that secular school would even mark a religious festival as couldn’t any celebration be seen as trying to convert people?

Not a secular school – a non-denominational school.
The schools do not exclude religious teaching. Quite the opposite. My kids, who also attend Scottish non-denominational school operating under the same guidelines, are far more knowledgeable in the study of comparative religions than I am…..because they got taught it at school in the same classroom as Muslim, Jewish, Sikh, Hindu and atheist kids. They have visited various places of worship of varying faiths as part of this….but never a Christian church.

Was the minister a bit naughty? Yes. Yes he was.
Was it worth emailing the heedie and starting an internet rammy? Probably not.

Which bit of the bible has all the presents and wrapping paper and debt and drinking and turkey and sprouts? (although I could believe sprouts are christian, **** evil things that they are)

If you want to educate your kids properly then yes that’s the stance you should be taking. So rather than being a bit mamby pamby and outraged at religion being mentioned at school you should have had that touch conversation with the kid. ‘Sorry we don’t believe in religion junior so you’re not getting a present today.’

This is just straw man nonsense. I’m more than happy for my kids to learn about religions, and to participate in the exchange of gifts during a particular time, which is currently appropriated by Christianity. None of this implies a belief in god.

I expect most atheists are the same.

Im not saying its any different to any of the other religions you mention. But the nativity is a christian story. So i don’t see what difference there is in putting on a christian play and then subsequently having some bloke stand up and talk about it and lead a prayer. If you don’t believe in it then just ignore it. Explain this to your (almost certainly) very bright children and move on. Exactly the same as if they celebrated any other religious festival.
Thats all I’m saying.

I’ll trump you with Government Circular 1/94

Which applies in England and Wales – Scotland has a separate education system.

But the nativity is a christian story. So i don’t see what difference there is in putting on a christian play and then subsequently having some bloke stand up and talk about it and lead a prayer. … Exactly the same as if they celebrated any other religious festival.

At Ramadan, they didn’t have the local Imam come in and ask everyone to kneel facing Mecca.

It’s not exactly how they celebrate other religious festivals.

although I could believe sprouts are christian, **** evil things that they are

That would explain why you have to put a cross into them

So i don’t see what difference there is in putting on a christian play and then subsequently having some bloke stand up and talk about it and lead a prayer

You can’t see the difference between storytelling, and an authority figure trying to tell children that the story is all true and they must believe it? I think it’s quite easy to spot the difference.

did they sing R.E.S.P.eeeee.ceeee.T. find out what it means to me.

i like that one, but it doesnt get used at christmas much.

I see Ben’s point of view. Not sure that I would have done anything about it myself, but I completely understand why one would be moved to do it.

There are a number of reasons for a child to take part in the school play beyond its content, just as there are a number of reasons for a parent of any (or no) religious persuasion to want to watch their child in that play. The fact it’s a condensed, theatrical version of the central Christian story can be quite secondary to these other reasons.

What’s most interesting is the almost institutionalised response: people sat there quietly (head bowed or not) when a preacher decided to “lead” them in prayer. I’d be more concerned about the effective exploitation of the audience’s politeness than the religious content.

Me, I’d have let my mind wander in a moment of quiet and then considered sending an email to the school to remind them of their religious responsibilities. But, being an agnostic, I’d have quickly forgotten all about it.

At Ramadan, they didn’t have the local Imam come in and ask everyone to kneel facing Mecca.

It’s not exactly how they celebrate other religious festivals.

Well maybe they should have done.

At Ramadan, they didn’t have the local Imam come in and ask everyone to kneel facing Mecca.

Would you have objected to the local Imam coming to the school and saying a few words after any celebrations the school organized?

Same for Rabbi after passover?

Personally I think it would be great to get more religion into schools, might reduce some of the conflict in the world, if we all understand a bit more about each other.

There are a number of reasons for a child to take part in the school play beyond its content, just as there are a number of reasons for a parent of any (or no) religious persuasion to want to watch their child in that play.

Well, quite. As I sat watching my beaming daughter – dressed as a donkey – singing at full volume and wildly out of tune, I will confess to getting a bit misty eyed. I’m delighted the school went to so much effort to put on a good show.

Just accuse of him of being a paedo – you wont see him again, he probably is anyway.

Seriously though, given the context of the day it’s not a massive surprise, is it? and even though it is a bit naughty you really are making a mountain out of a mole hill. I suggest in the spirit of christmas you forgive the vicar his transgression.

Sounds perfectly reasonable to me. If I went to see a play that was, as far as the kids (and anyone with half a rational brain) can tell, just a story then had to pray after it in an environment where praying is expressly not allowed I’d be miffed.

If it helps I went to a “secular” school that rammed Christianity down my throat in the 90’s (we were allowed one Jewish song a month, as a token) which had the undesired effect of me getting sick to death of it and becoming a good, healthy, well rounded atheist. Hopefully your daughter will end up the same as you and I.

The minister is just telling a story. Is ben not an authority figure in his kids lives? Can he not explain to them that what the bloke is saying is a load of pish? I’m pretty sure he is and that he does.
He’s only an authority figure if you treat him that way. i.e. if you’re a christian.

Would you have objected to the local Imam coming to the school and saying a few words after any celebrations the school organized?

Depends entirely on what those words were. If they were along the lines of “we believe in such-and-such” then great, all for that. If they were along the lines of “this is absolutely true, you must believe it, and now we’ll all pray to my God” then definitely not on.

You can’t see the difference between storytelling, and an authority figure trying to tell children that the story is all true and they must believe it? I think it’s quite easy to spot the difference.

It’s the hipocrisy of the OP that gets me – ‘I’ll let her take part in this religious play because it’s cute and nice, but I’ll be shocked when a representative of the religion speaks about it at the end’.

(FWIW – I’m an athiest so have no religious axe to grind).

COMPLETELY with the OP on this. Whilst I have no issue with religious education and awareness, how DARE any school present their choice of fairy story as fact. IMHO, this country feels like it’s gone backwards on this in the last few years, the conservative Christian position seems to have had a stealthy resurgence. I could be completely wrong, it may just be my perception I suppose.

All of you ‘get a grip, it’s a Christian country’ brigade would be up in arms if they started poo pooing evolution in favour of Genesis at your child’s school I would imagine (or at least hope). THIS IS NO DIFFERENT. A story that some people believe should always be presented as such to impressionable young minds. To present it as fact when no scientific proof exists is absolutely disgusting and is nothing more than indoctrination, plain and simple. It should be illegal.

I think most non denominational Scottish Primary schools are like this OP. Ours are in EK and the local Church of Scotland Minister attends many assemblies, nativities, etc in a formal role.

I think the key in the guidance is around

without compromise to their personal faith stances

as it seems to be fairly widely accepted that primary school kids won’t have a faith stance. Their parent often do on the other hand though ! 🙂

and in answer to your original question, I’d say no. It is the norm, get used to it or put your kids in private school where you pay to get choice.

how DARE any school present their choice of fairy story as fact

Never heard of faith schools?

I like this one

Gary_M – Member

I don’t believe in god so you can’t have a present? Good one.

If you want to educate your kids properly then yes that’s the stance you should be taking. So rather than being a bit mamby pamby and outraged at religion being mentioned at school you should have had that touch conversation with the kid. ‘Sorry we don’t believe in religion junior so you’re not getting a present today.’

Because gifts are the exclusive preserve of Christianity and it’s the bible which preaches most about giving extravagant and exorbitant gifts to ones own whilst ignoring all the poor and needy all around.

It’s the hipocrisy of the OP that gets me – ‘I’ll let her take part in this religious play because it’s cute and nice, but I’ll be shocked when a representative of the religion speaks about it at the end’.

The OP is pointing out that the school is not following its own guidelines. You’ll have to explain why that is hypocritical.

Seriously? Atheist? Nativity play? Religion? Prayers?
Seriously? 😯
The human race is doomed..

Ben, my apologies for the fact that I forgot you were in the frozen north.

If you don’t want to expose your children to views and beliefs other than your own, or those you are willing to tolerate, then educate them yourself or at the very least withdraw them from any activity in school that may have a religious element.

The OP is pointing out that the school is not following its own guidelines. You’ll have to explain why that is hypocritical.

If religion in schools bothered him that much he should have complained beforehand about them putting on a Christian play, or withdrawn his daughter.

I am a raving Hoxhaite atheist and you are being unreasonable, OP.

If you are so worried about this, why on earth haven’t you enrolled your child into a secular school?

It is. It is a non-denominational Scottish state school. Do I need to quote the guidelines again?

“Secular” doesn’t mean the same as “non-denominational”. OP didn’t even read the introduction to his own “guidelines” link, which says

Under the Education (Scotland) Act 1980 Education Authorities have a statutory duty to provide Religious Observance and Religious Education in Scottish schools. This continues the requirements of previous Education Acts. Furthermore parents / carers have a legal right to withdraw their child from such provision.

A nativity play is religious observance. The OP could have withdrawn his kid from it. The minister didn’t prosetylise (look up the meaning). To start pearl-clutching when Reverend McGinty does Thought for the Day after the kids finish singing Little Donkey is disingenuous. He was hardly advocating hanging pagans and heretics from the tuck shop.