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it's a classic case of the uk receiving lower overall tax receipts because of punitive rates of tax on those who are in fact reasonably mobile and can choose where to live.
Most European countries have a top rate of tax which is either equal or more than the UK top rate.
It's not "a classic case of the uk".
Yes, you have chosen to be a teacher but others has chosen to be tax exiles so what's the problem? You have chosen to work like monkey for peanuts while tax exiles feel the same in where they pay their tax. Yes?
No
the change in behaviour on tax is well proven so for the naysayers feel free to find the information yourselves as it's readily available:
France - increase in emigration of high net worth individuals under the current government
UK - effect of high tax rates in the 1970s and following the introduction of the 50p rate
Also as an aside, the UK currently has one of the highest marginal rates of tax on the world at 62% on personal
Income above £100k
Anyway, none of this matters unless we actually want our public services to be affordable and properly funded.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/10390571/france-hollande-taxes-socialist-farrage.html
http://www.economist.com/node/21530093
Not sports people but.....
See if you can find Jonathan Ross' rant on the last series of Last Leg on You Tube - I'm no fan of his, but he basically said that he was lucky enough to earn a shed load of money, he paid about half of it in tax here in the UK which helped pay for public services, and it still left him with a shed load of money for himself.
Elton john - for all his quirks and strange spending habits - has always made the point that he lives here, he pays his taxes here, and he can spend the rest how he damn well pleases.
Respect to both of them for appreciating the opportunities their wealth has given them without shirking their responsibilities.
I would be interested in any evidence to support any claim they have ever made on this site.
I would not hold your breath if I were you.
Is it a previous user with a new login?
I usually avoid the political threads on here due to their utter futility so I'm a bit out of date.
PS. And I was being sarcastic, obvs 🙂
Well if corporations paid for everything there would be no need for any other taxes, but they don't.
Damn those parasitic companies. We should ban them - the country would be far fairer then.
It's OK to have a strong dislike for both, surely?
Yes of course. People will abuse and manipulate the system regardless of how it is set up. The problem is the 'game' in this country is so skewed to favour the super rich and multinationals it is bordering on the ridiculous.
Louis Hamilton is a drop in the ocean compared to the tax avoidance that goes on with ultra high net worth individuals and huge corporations. It doesn't make it right though.
When you have people like Warren Buffet in the US saying he should pay more tax, perhaps the governments would do well to listen. Trickle down economics is a myth.
Not sure if an oldie member or not but they turn up say something [ fairly right wing without evidence] leave , return at day later and repeat.
Oh yes they are futile but I am drawn to them like flies to [s]a flame[/s] shit 😳
Damn those parasitic companies. We should ban them - the country would be far fairer then.
There point was that they should pay tax
[img] 
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Hello Mr Internationally mobile wealthy Person, we would like to tax you a bit more. I hope that is ok.
Gee thanks....
Where did he go?...hello, hello ?
That will explain why there are no more wealthy mobile folk left in the UK
Well that spiralled a bit!
The most interesting point above was about foreign trained doctors working here. Interesting view that, but not what I was trying to get at. Though it's worth some more thought.
Really though it's about Lh choosing to take exile in order to pay less tax. He's actively chosen to live outside Britain so he doesn't pay tax here. In my opinion that is wrong and he isn't pulling for Team Britain. In the same way that Branson et all do the same. They are, of course, still British though, nationality has little to do with where you pay tax!
Good on Elton John btw, didn't know that about him.
At the end of the day I am just a man venting frustration at how people choose not to muck in to help when the country is shafted. I would still pay my dues, no matter what.
There point was that they should pay tax
Making them parasitic if they don't? Hence I don't really deserve the pic (though I 😆 )
The point appeared to be that the UK government had supported LH because whilst it was actually McLaren who had, McLaren hadn't paid sufficient taxes to directly cover the education, health care etc. of all their employees and so their activities are "subsidised". In the same way the activities of any other company are "subsidised" as I pointed out. Of course the question in that case is where do all the other taxes come from? I suspect McLaren makes substantial payments directly to the taxman which aren't anything to do with corporation tax...
Had to work in Monaco 2 weeks every year around this time of year for about ten years. The place is awful, horrible horrible horrible nasty lifeless town (even though it was all expenses paid 5* hotel opposite the casino). I'd rather pay tax than live there (though i suspect that most don't really "live" there.
I didnt think he drove for Mclaren
I didnt think he drove for Mclaren
😆 - you could always try googling
So Is anyone that leaves the uk a parasite, or just successful people? A doctor that trains at the expense of the uk then goes overseas to help refugees?. Or are we just anti rich people leaving, at what £ do we set the bar? Lewis has worked hard and been successful, yes he's overpaid but that's the market. He should get to lives where he wants.
So Is anyone that leaves the uk a parasite, or just successful people?
A working doctor is not the same as running off to a tax haven.
Are you really trying to compare a person leaving the UK to do humanitarian work with the poor with a multi millionaire[ 88 and rising] leaving the UK to have even more money 😯
Just when you thought STW could not do a worse comparison/analogy/question
Face Palm
100% vat on stylish gold chains and diamond earings should get back when he returns.
I'm not sure that there's much incentive for him to stay in the UK really, his chosen career has him traveling all over the world anyway, why not take your disgusting wealth and go live somewhere with nicer weather surrounded by similarly filthy rich people?
I'd not begrudge Hamilton the right to live wherever he chooses, or the right to hold a British passport, so long as his tax arrangements are legal and above board in the jurisdiction he resides in, what's the actual complaint?
what's the actual complaint?
😀
That the op feels if he was in LH's situation he would want to give more back. I agree with him.
Exactly A-A, thanks.
Fwiw, I an not anti rich, quite the opposite, people should be encouraged to succeed and I am happy for people if they are successful and earn a lot of money, good luck to them.
The 'actual complaint' cookeaa is nothing to do with his passport, nationality, or where he chooses to live. It's that he's choosing to live outside Britain to avoid paying tax here. A small percentage of his 'disgusting wealth' might help people in real need right here in blighty and I think it's sad he doesn't give a damn and chooses to opt out of that in order to make himself more 'disgustingly wealthy'.
I believe the complaint was too much tax for Lewis Hamilton. Apparently Monaco can sort out their affairs without spending large amounts of money of education, healthcare, nuclear weapons, etc, and as a result can keep their taxes very low.
Remember when Sean Connery stuck his oar in on Scottish independence and was almost universally slapped down since he's lived in Spain for decades?
People can live where they want but I think there is something to what the OP is saying. If Hamilton lives in Monaco, pays (some) tax in Monaco then shouldn't he represent Monaco or France when he races? Should he be eligible for Sports Personality of the Year etc etc...or does he only lose his British credentials once he's retired and irrelevant.
I think it's sad he doesn't give a damn and chooses to opt out of that in order to make himself more 'disgustingly wealthy'.
How do you know? Do you know how much he gives to UK charities?
I wonder how many millions in revenue the brand Lewis Hamilton generates in VAT and corporation tax.
Hmmm, SPOTY is voted for by British people so far as I am aware, so clearly this resentment isn't universal, plus what does it really mean? That the sort of people who vote for stupid popularity competitions like SPOTY think LH is teh awsomez...
Men... There are far greater injustices in the world to get worked up over...
Men... There are far greater injustices in the world to get worked up over...
Sexist.
I could edit it back to "meh" but I think I should let that particular auto-correction stand... Works much better
😀
Anyway... By the standards of this argument / discussion / thread I reckon the Richest "British" Sportsperson is.....
Mark Webber.
Ten years in F1, drove for one, if not the, best funded teams on the grid, hugely popular, got offered a bucket of money by Porche to go there after F1, not flash so won't have blown it all like a footballer, lived in Buckinghamshire pretty much all his professional life.
He's an Aussie of course, but pays his taxes here and that's all that counts eh?
Richmars, I don't know how much Lh gives to charity, and nor do I care because that is completely irrelevant anyway!
The point I made is he isn't paying f#@#ing tax here by choice!...
Tomorrow I will write to hmrc and say I don't want to pay income tax nor NI on my paltry salary any more just because I don't want to. I will pay the equivalent, or as much as I want to instead, to the RSPB. Can't see anything going wrong there now Richmars, huh...
A working doctor is not the same as running off to a tax haven
I wasn't saying it was, hence the ? I'm just curious as to where you think we should draw the line.
How do you know? Do you know how much he gives to UK charities?
So he left to move to a low tax area so that he could pay even more of his personal wealth to charity and not to avoid UK tax. Furthermore it was not done to make himself more wealthy but, I assume, poorer?
May I ask how you know this is the case as it seems most unlikely?
We all know why he went, lets not pretend otherwise.
[quote=chipsngravy opined]I wonder how many millions in revenue the brand Lewis Hamilton generates in VAT and corporation tax.
Nil?
Lewis isn't British, listen to that ridiculous accent
Jools, that's a genuine Lol!
SAS78, it was your 'he doesn't give a damn' comment I was more concerned about. None of us know if he gives a damn or not, but a quick search suggests he does give money and time to charities.How much, and whether it's more or less then the tax he doesn't pay no one knows.
I'm just not letting my preconceived view of LH fit the evidence.
I remember popping round to the Mum's for Sunday cuppa and picked up on of the supplements. Inside was a big LH interview in which he stated he loved England and would never leave for tax reasons.
Inside 48hrs the news of his emigration hit the papers.
Oh how I laughed.
How much, and whether it's more or less then the tax he doesn't pay no one knows.
I'm just not letting my preconceived view of LH fit the evidence.
LOL. Its still preposterous to suggest he moved to a tax haven to give more money to charity and to then further suggest its more money than he saves from tax avoidance.
If you believe that is there any chance you can help out my Nigerian cousin. He is a prince and in a little bit of a pickle. He will make it worth your while.
Naive beyond words so have a picture
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I may be naive but, unlike you, I can read.
I didn't say he has moved to give more money to charity, I said no one, not even you, know.
Would you like to read my Nigerian cousins letter then? Its very plausible and we dont know whether that account is true either so you will happily assume it is then as it is also ludicrously implausible.
I can read but i can also laugh at your absence of critical thinking and naivety.
You have not even claimed it's true either its a what if he did X without any evidence to support X and X is prima facie nonsense
Richmars, ok then, I stand by the fact he doesn't give a damn, and it isn't a specific comment about Lh but a concept in general.
I was specifically referring to him not giving a damn for the tax system in this country which is the way to put back into society fairly I.e. For the greater good by letting our elected government decide where to allocate funds. Whether we agree with where they spend them is irrelevant, but by him choosing to opt out of that system he doesn't give a damn for people in need throughout our British society.
If he chooses to go off and put all his money into certain charities, which he is free to do and I would applaud that, it is fine but by virtue of his choice he is excluding people who are not benefited by his chosen charities.
My opinion is, you pay your dues by tax. You then do whatever you like with your money after that. If you think that concept is somehow flawed then please enlighten us with your solution.
The only fact is that LH has moved to abroad. Anything else is speculation. It may well be to save tax, but without knowing what he pays, to whom, on one knows for sure.
That may, in your view, show a lack of critical thinking on my part, but, do you think I care what you think of my reasoning?
Your defence is we dont know why the tax exile moved to a tax haven and it may be to give more money to charity ....its ludicrous.
Fair enough on that point but perhaps a bloke who's work takes him all over the world chooses to live somewhere that is probably quite nice and warm along with paying his taxes there.
He also might just like hanging out with other famous sports people
http://blog.directly.me/30-celebrities-living-in-monte-carlo-how-to-contact-them/
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/feb/05/team-sky-hub-france-nice-monaco
http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/wales/28869243
I was specifically referring to him not giving a damn for the tax system in this country which is the way to put back into society fairly I.e. For the greater good by letting our elected government decide where to allocate funds.
Funniest thing I've read on here for ages 😆
do you think I care what you think of my reasoning?
Why are you going to such lengths to defend it then ? 🙄
If you want to think he left to live in a tax haven not to avoid tax than that is your choice. Its still naive and ludicrous and my cousin is earnest to get in touch.
Shall we leave it there or shall we just repeat ourselves ?
Thanks woody!
You've taken that bit of of context though... I did caveat that worth the bit about not necessarily agreeing etc...!
Richmars, I do think there's a flaw in your argument but discussion\disagreement is the point of a debate. Of course the whole scenario is speculation but aunty beebs journalist did call him a tax exile, would expect they checked that out before making such a specific statement.
🙂Shall we leave it there or shall we just repeat ourselves ?
"Daddy, when I grown up I want to be a tax payer"
sas78,
I'm happy to accept that the most likely reason that LH has moved abroad is to save tax. As has been mentioned above, many high earners do.
I don't agree that he doesn't give a damn about the people he's left behind. But this bit is all speculation and up to individuals views of LH.
Has anybody on this thread yet told us whether they have a CTW scheme bike?
Used to buy a 160mm bouncer !!!
So how much would someone have cost the country's purse by the time they're say 25 years old? Education, health, policing, all that sort of stuff. And how much would you need to have earned to pay for all of that in taxation and be free to clear off to live where the heck you like and pay all the tax they legally require of you without being scolded by a bunch of frustrated indignant keyboard warriors ?
aracer - Member
Has anybody on this thread yet told us whether they have a CTW scheme bike?
Holds up hand, used it when the scheme was quite new to buy a bike, to cycle to work on, not sure I actually saved anything, but seeing as it apparently makes me a "tax avoider" when should I book my flight to Monaco?
The sense of entitlement some people feel to other people's money is always interesting. The poor guy has probably paid enough UK tax in his life to build a hospital wing and yet he's somehow not pulling his weight.
Agreed. He's already paid more tax than most of us will [b]earn[/b] in our lifetime so I for one have absolutely no problem if he chooses to live elsewhere, for whatever reason.
Why pick on LH anway, it's not like it is a new phenomenon as it has been common practice for as far back as I can remember for those in a position to do it. How about that rascal Mr Cavendish, how much tax does he pay?
Has anybody on this thread yet told us whether they have a CTW scheme bike?
I thought we covered that earlier. I dont have a bike on ctw but I do have an ISA. I would suggest that paying into an ISA or a pension is not tax avoidance as ISA's are tax free and that is how the gov intended it. Does the gov intend for people to move to tax havens as soon as they can afford to?
Agreed. He's already paid more tax than most of us will earn in our lifetime so I for one have absolutely no problem if he chooses to live elsewhere, for whatever reason.
I'm not surevyou understand hiw the tax system works (or doesnt work).
I'm fairly sure you didn't get the point I was making 😉
Your ISA is still tax avoidance I'm afraid. People in glass houses etc.
I would suggest that paying into an ISA or a pension is not tax avoidance as ISA's are tax free and that is how the gov intended it. Does the gov intend for people to move to tax havens as soon as they can afford to?
Moving abroad isn't exactly exploiting a clever tax loophole*, or something the government actually has a policy on is it? The fundamental point though is that plenty of people on here seem to be suggesting that LH should choose to pay more tax.
*like getting a CTW bike which isn't suitable for riding to work
Your ISA is still tax avoidance I'm afraid. People in glass houses etc.
Not according to the hmrc definition it isnt.
The fundamental point though is that plenty of people on here seem to be suggesting that LH should choose to pay more tax.
Correct, and suprise suprise some people have different views on this. Paying into an isa and moving abroad to save paying tax on your tens of millions wages are not in any sensible way comparable though.
The principle is the same, the only difference is scale. So at what point does it become morally reprehensible?
I dont think the principle is the same. Could you explain how they are.
The bike to work scheme thing would be the same in principle. ISA example is not, its likecsuggesting bikes dont pay road tax.
Moving abroad and paying local taxes instead of UK ones is a completely legal, and deliberately legal, way of avoiding tax, just like an ISA. It is not in any way a 'loophole'. The major difference is the former is something other people do to get out of tax (morally reprehensible, how dare they), and the latter is something you do, which obviously makes it 100% ok then.
The fundamental point though is that plenty of people on here seem to be suggesting that LH should choose to pay more tax.
Correct, and suprise suprise some people have different views on this.
Indeed - I don't see any reason why you should choose to pay more tax by giving up your ISA.
Paying into an isa and moving abroad to save paying tax on your tens of millions wages are not in any sensible way comparable though.
So would you rather live in Slough or Monaco?
An isa is a small amount of tax saving, limited in scope and available to every UK tax payer. It's aim is to encourage as many people as possible to have a small saving and investment pot. It is in absolutely in no way comparable to running away and hiding in a tax haven.
So would you rather live in Slough or Monaco?
There are hundreds upon hundreds of miles of Mediterranean coastline that are far far nicer than the concrete abomination that is Monaco. The reason for choosing Monaco is to avoid tax, not because it is a nice place.
So back to amount (£), scope and can everyone do it? Hmmm....
Well to make it fair lets just have everyone stop paying income tax, lets see how long F1 drivers and Mercedes last in that world.
I certainly wouldn't mind not have that chunk of tax being taken out of my monthly pay packet. If I am really really lucky the world might not disintegrate so fast that I could get to enjoy it for a while.
Exactly, tax avoidance I'm in the position to do = fine. Tax avoidance I can't = immoral.
I am not in a position take advantage of tax breaks for research and development, but I don't think they are immoral.
I would consider it immoral to take advantage of UK government assistance for research and development, and afterwards ship out to a low tax state.
ISA's are not a way of avoiding tax. There is no tax on ISA's I'm struggling to see how people cannot understand this. Its like avoiding petrol tax by riding a bike.
Read the HRMC advice that you quoted, it explains things (although it makes no specific reference to the perfectly legal choice of residence.)
You are entitled to plan your tax affairs in a way that makes sure you do not pay more tax than you have to.
HRMC
You can out money into ISAs, use tax advantage of pensions or even move abroad - your choice.
I'm struggling to see how people cannot understand this
You're not the only one . . .Government promoted savings scheme versus blatant tax dodging by relocating to another country.
If you've got a UK passport, then cough up your whack or hand over your passport.
Simple
If you've got a UK passport, then cough up your whack or hand over your passport.
But that is neither the law nor the intention of the law, so it is not avoidance in the sense defined by HMRC.
If you've got a UK passport, then cough up your whack or hand over your passport.
Does this also include all non-domiciled British passport holders who pay local taxes in the country they currently live in, or are you proposing that the vast majority of the British who live abroad (i.e. who are not LH rich) pay 2 sets of taxes?