Reopening schools question.

I’ve seen teachers complain about tutoring.

Really! Proof?
I’m a teacher, and know lots of teachers, and have known plenty of others over the years….and have never heard a teacher complain about tutoring or extra learning.
We love knowledge, and want to impart it to youngsters, why would we complain about extra knowledge?!

Oh come on there’s been plenty of disapproval on here about tutoring giving the already higher attaining more of an advantage. I also have direct experience of teachers not being happy about tutoring. Our local primary school was very against it, not sure if they took it as personal criticism of their teaching or some misplaced political ideology.

Disappointing news from Wales.

WAG said / advised they’ve be extending the summer term by a week and compensating with a 2 week Oct half-term. Our school worked their socks off, set a time table that gave all the kids roughly the same amount of time in school that was fair and reasonable. I know I rant about Teachers sometimes but they did a brilliant job and there wasn’t a single complaint from any staff about it (they’ve joined the same FB group as the parents which is nice, we even got to learn their FIRST NAME).

Anyway, seems the Union didn’t like it, so now our school has to redo everything. I don’t think I’ve ever seen teachers being quite so vocal in public before.

Gavin Williamson said lifting the 15-pupil cap and expanding the size of protective bubbles would enable whole classes of 30 to be taught together,

“We’ve been creating bubbles of children in the classroom, creating a protective environment for those children. Currently that is at 15 – what we would be looking at doing is expanding those bubbles to include the whole class,” Williamson told the Downing Street coronavirus press briefing on Friday.

Well that doesn’t make any sense, at least for secondary schools. Pupils move from class to class, they’re not with the same 30 kids all day.

Oh come on there’s been plenty of disapproval on here about tutoring

Not everyone on here is a teacher.

Only time I’ve seen teachers disapprove is when its shit or when a kid who is doing well is being pushed too hard by over eager patents and their mental health is suffering. I may also have said once or twice it would be far cheaper for little jimmy just to shut up and do some work in school too.

To Kelvin – there are some issues with that viral load in children paper, it may actually show the opposite to what they claim:
David Spiegelhalter blog

Yes, it is seriously lacking data as regards children, and assumes a distribution that is unproven (if expected) to reach its conclusion. Now go and look at the piece it was posted as a reply to… it is far worse, nothing more than a series of anecdotes and suppositions really… polemic journalism not a study.

Really! Proof?

What are you expecting here, a hidden camera video recording from a classroom?
You do know the rules, don’t you teacher?

Ajantom
For context an example, teacher complaining about 11+ tutoring and demanding more priority for set school work.
Unlike aa’s example above, teacher was the one adding the pressure, and associated mental health issues.
Again , the obvious conflict was the curriculum and Sats (which the teacher is assessed against) versus what’s best for the individual child – short term 11+ exams which occur first chronologicaly , and longer term next school outcome.

My opinion is there’s a lot of very awesome teachers out there, most of you do s brilliant job most of the time, but some do sometimes get it wrong for the children and there’s often a connection to the pressure they’re put under either through curriculum, assessment or sats.

As an 11-16 teacher, I also do some (Post 16) tutoring. It allows me to earn a bit of extra pocket money whilst keeping my Post 16 teaching knowledge current.

I can argue the positive and negative cases – positives are kids doing more work, maybe getting a better mastery of the subject 1 on 1. Some kids thrive in a smaller group.

Negatives are kids who do little in class thinking they can ‘catch up’ the 4 hours of class teaching they missed cos they see a tutor for an hour once a week, unqualified tutors teaching things in a different manner to the teacher and confusing the kids, and widening the gap between those who have money and those who don’t.

We have a paid maths tutor on our staff, and we offer tutoring to those who aren’t attaining where they should be, but only if they are doing the right things in class (homework completed, classwork done, good attitude towards work. Tutoring is a complement to classwork, not a replacement.

but some do sometimes get it wrong for the children and there’s often a connection to the pressure

Teachers get stuff wrong all the time, even the really really good ones, despite what many think its actually a very difficult job and yes pressure to meet targets that are cimpletely arbitary doesnt help.

24 new acute respiratory outbreaks in schools (same as hospitals) reported to Public Health Eng last week, half officially CV tested, up from 14 week before in UK, 15 before that and 0-4 in rest lockdown

199 total – incl still elevated 101 new outbreaks in care homes, 50 “other” pic.twitter.com/M3kg6wgz4N

— Faisal Islam (@faisalislam) June 18, 2020

Fwiw my niece still hasn’t been contacted by tracers, a week after her classmate tested positive

Are they bothering with school kids at all ?

@kimbers post shows worrying figures, although it doesn’t confirm cause or effect of kids being back in school in England.

In Scotland on Tuesday schools will be told and will be communicated on to parents what we already know – all schools will offer only part time face to face contact until October.

@kelvin I read that a while ago (it is fairly old in this context). I think they sound a little too confident in their conclusions, but the main body is fairly clear about the limited sources of information that it’s drawing on, which tells you what you need to know about the level of uncertainty.

The viral load paper is different in that it has fairly good data, albeit with relatively low numbers from children, but then makes a claim that the data doesn’t appear to support by trying to be too clever in their analysis.

It’s all a slightly moot point now anyway – more widespread school re-opening and contact tracing (if it’s any good…) should provide lots more information about the risk of spreading. I hope there is more detailed information than the graphics in kimbers post though, otherwise we still won’t know if the transmission is between students or staff/parents.

which tells you what you need to know about the level of uncertainty

Yes, low certainty. But their conclusions are clear and unqualified (and unsubstantiated in my opinion). As they were cherry picking (weak) datasets and studies to fit their opinion, I simply posted one that doesn’t fit… it is just as flawed as the ones they cite though.

Ultimately, we know kids are very safe in terms of risk to themselves… we really don’t have the data to say that gathering them all together isn’t a risk to the community.

As a teacher who also tutors. Charge for one to one and free after school for small groups. I’m ok with it, the kids that come to the after school get more out of it. The ones I charge for probably raise a grade but their effort is usually the limiting factor. About 10 years ago I tutored a Edinburgh public school boy and charged £45 an hour including travel. And he got A in N5 H and AH (GCSE and AS/A2) to be fair he’d have done well anyway but he wanted to do medicine and dad was a consultant mum a uni lecturer.

ajantom

You may see school as just childcare for the masses, but for many students it’s the only opportunity to better themselves and learn. It’s a bridge to further education and beyond.
Again you may say that they’d be better off not being at school and learning on their own.
For all but a very few that would not work.

I’m not suggesting no school, I’m saying most of the kids would benefit from being stimulated and learning at their own pace rather than at the speed of the slowest.

It’s hard to actually summarise the various reasons/point given as to what the actual purpose of school is…. for example why kids spend so much time doing non academic activities.

I see it as a bridge to education … and so long as everyone ends up at the same place give or take it doesn’t need to be a race.
However if kids can get to that place without sitting in classes that bore them and turn them off learning surely thats a good thing?

To me it looks like we are stuck in a paradigm that sitting in a class repeating the same stuff is what works best for everyone.
It might work well enough for most or some … but it doesn’t work well for many and actively teaches them to be disinterested, bored and despise education.

It also seems that many who become teachers are some of the ones it worked for thus propagating this belief.

It’s just an observation but many of the “problem” kids are a problem because they are being forced to do things that are boring or they already know.

Perhaps the easiest example being my ex who was bi-lingual but forced to sit through lessons in her mother tongue.

My son was much happier self learning… he just got past papers and marking schemes for his SATS.
I hated school… and after O levels went to a CofFE for A levels which I found much better for me.

It also seems that many who become teachers are some of the ones it worked for thus propagating this belief.

Well I hated school, I was bullied and was actively disruptive in many lessons.
I had some great teachers though, and for them I worked my socks off.
I got into teaching partly because it failed me in many ways, and I wanted to make a difference for just those ‘problem’ kids you talk about below.

It’s just an observation but many of the “problem” kids are a problem because they are being forced to do things that are boring or they already know.

Yes, and this current system is by no means perfect. The Tory govts over the last 10 years have eaten away at the vocational qualifications and coursework that often suits these kids.

I see A LOT of these ‘problem’ kids as you call them. I teach DT, and historically we get the ‘he can’t read or write, but he likes to bang things’ type of pupils. We do our best for them and try to teach them useful skills (whilst also trying to meet the daft progress targets the govt sets). Many of them will go onto apprenticeships and be sparkies, chippies, builders, etc. Mainstream education often isn’t right for them, but they can’t on the other hand be allowed to drop out. Early access to vocational courses and apprenticeships, etc would often be the best way forward for them.

My son was much happier self learning… he just got past papers and marking schemes for his SATS.
I hated school… and after O levels went to a CofFE for A levels which I found much better for me.

Well done, you’ve managed to extrapolate a lot from a sample of two.

It might work well enough for most or some … but it doesn’t work well for many

I’m interested as to where these statements come from there were some %s being thrown around earlier too, again where from?

As I said in an earlier post GIRFEC is what we aspire to (getting it right for every child) differentiation and assessment by outcome help. But school isn’t just about leaving with bits of paper.

But school isn’t just about leaving with bits of paper.

For all its many and growing faults my impression is that the Scottish education system still has more appreciation of that point than the English one.

Agreed Spin. I used to do a transition with p7 coming up, I’d take the ones with the greatest risk of failure in the transition and do a morning outdoors (all they remember is Kelly kettles and hot chocolate) but even now I get some of the most unrully kids sitting in my room for a chat.
But the program was pulled because my time was too expensive (just a big standard chem teacher). It was an interesting day coming back from being outside with those kids to teaching Pauli exclusion principle to AH.

Just like to add that I too hated school until A levels, which may explain why I got more a’s at a level than gcse.
I remember being in what would have been year 2 or 3 being told that we were making fathers day cards that day, so when I asked what I should do (mine had died a few years before and tge teacher knew it as she had also taught my brother at the time) I had to do maths…that silly cow regretted it I added 1 to every maths question for the rest of the year, drove her **** mad.

Anywat stevexc, I dont think you realise how contrained teachers are now in what they teach, its Gove you want to direct your displeasure at.

onehundredthidiot

I’m interested as to where these statements come from there were some %s being thrown around earlier too, again where from?

Two different things … first work for what? What is the aim, is it to hold everyone back top the lowest level OR that each kid should reach their potential by a certain age? (or something else?)

The current KPI’s and system are designed to focus/reward based on the lowest achieving .. so if the aim is everyone achieves their potential then the other 95-85% are being failed and the % of kids the “system is for” is depending on funding 5%-15%.

If “working” means holding back the top 50% then 50% are not achieving their potential.. but that is a different thing… just because the system is designed for the lowest performing doesn’t mean it affects everyone else equally.

As I said in an earlier post GIRFEC is what we aspire to (getting it right for every child) differentiation and assessment by outcome help.

But what is right?
What is the correct answer to 7×9 in Yr 3?? Why is the answer “you aren’t allowed to know that until Yr4” or 7*3*3? You can say it’s correct because OFSTED forbid teaching 7 or 9 times tables to year 3… but you need to justify to say why it’s right.

Equally teachers are told which pupils can’t be tested “because they are too far ahead and if we test them we have to find them more work (and we don’t have time)”?
Maybe that keeps the class together but is it right for that child being forced to do work that is boring or trivial and presents no challenges?

The answer to both of these seems to be “but they won’t have anything to do next term/year”.

I get it but then that is because the system is for the 5%-15% … each term/yr the 5-15 have to scrape though whilst everyone else waits, repeats the same drivel and tries to get a seat with a view. Where is the motivation ??

But school isn’t just about leaving with bits of paper.

Once again, each Autumn (normally) we get the email about how its SO CRITICAL no child misses a single day or their entire academic career will suffer.

However the bigger question in is where is the mandate for that?
We, the electorate and tax payers are told we are paying to make sure all kids have access to an (academic) education. Kids are sent to school (many kicking, screaming and crying) to get an academic education but the justification if they just happen to have exceeded what they need to do that year is ” school isn’t just about leaving with bits of paper ” ???

ajantom

Well done, you’ve managed to extrapolate a lot from a sample of two.

It’s 2 examples… it might be very dated now but the majority of the others who went to the same C of FE to do A levels (my friends) were broadly the same. Like myself their schools mostly had 6th forms and nothing would have been easier than just carry on but instead they had mostly had to make an effort to get into the college.

Yes, and this current system is by no means perfect. The Tory govts over the last 10 years have eaten away at the vocational qualifications and coursework that often suits these kids.

Lots of things have contributed to this … probably the biggest is forcing kids into full time education and stopping them working but also filling their head with crap.
I was explaining to mine the other week how the last/only new bike I ever owned I paid for myself working evenings and holidays in an engineering factory when I was 12-13. (A pistachio green biancci) or he asked “how did you learn to plaster/bricklay” and I explained when I was his age I got sent out with my grandad to labour and learn skills. His first response was “you should have called childline, that’s child exploitation”. (wtf???)

Anyway…

I see A LOT of these ‘problem’ kids as you call them. I teach DT, and historically we get the ‘he can’t read or write, but he likes to bang things’ type of pupils. We do our best for them and try to teach them useful skills (whilst also trying to meet the daft progress targets the govt sets).

and I bet the majority of them are from low income families… so I think we agree it’s not working. Apprenticeships used to be very highly sought after and many bright and well educated kids did them as well. A lucas engineering apprenticeship in the early 80’s had the same level of maths as A level

The Tory govts over the last 10 years have eaten away at the vocational qualifications and coursework that often suits these kids.

Way before that – it goes back to Thatcher creating middle management… but then got modified by NuLab (compulsory education to 18) before the current shower

Mainstream education often isn’t right for them, but they can’t on the other hand be allowed to drop out. Early access to vocational courses and apprenticeships, etc would often be the best way forward for them.

Some of them…. but its not the only way.
Many of them could achieve high academic goals if the system worked for them instead of pushing them into mediocrity. I totally agree that the CURRENT mainstream education isn’t right for them.. but I don’t think that should consign them all to being brickies or plasterers.

I think one of the reasons for the gap is as you mentioned but with a twist that parents that care about having education… I think although that’s true it’s more complicated because one difference is in getting them to “succeed” despite the system.

To go back to the college and the engineering apprenticeships. We did the same levels (in our case the same exams) as the 6th forms… we just did it quicker and with far less hand holding.
In the case of apprenticeships I knew from friends they were doing the same level of study AND working. [before Lucas in Burnley there was the mechanics institute and others, (my father for example) did his A levels a day a week whilst working for BNFL (British Nuclear Fuels) then did his metallurgy degree… ]

There was far more opportunity pre-thatcher for non-mainstream education which seems bizarre when you think it’s 2020 and we have t’interwebby thing.

The current KPI’s and system are designed to focus/reward based on the lowest achieving ..

No they are not, this is one positive change in the last few years.

Didnt read the rest

OFSTED forbid teaching 7 or 9 times tables to year 3

No they dont, firstly ofsted forbid nothing and second my son was doing 7 and 9 last year in year 3.

Not going well so far.

Equally teachers are told which pupils can’t be tested “because they are too far ahead and if we test them we have to find them more work (and we don’t have time)”?

Ofsted would down grade a school if they saw this.

You are so woefully misinformed its quite funny tbh

Blimey, that was a long read, and mostly waffle.
All of your assumptions are based on your personal (and pretty out of date) experience, or your son’s, which feels like we’re maybe not getting the whole story.

Pretty much all your examples (as AA pointed out) are wrong.

You say your wife is a teacher. Do you talk to her? Could you put her on the line? I’m not going to respond to you any more as I feel you’re wilfully misinterpreting anything a member of my profession says.

You say your wife is a teacher. Do you talk to her?

I reckon she left him for another teacher!!!!

The problem is this type of misinformed piffle is rife.

My wife (a teacher too) was on the WhatsApp group for our daughter’s yr1 class.
She ended up leaving as the amount of crap being spouted was unbelievable, and no-one would actually listen to her (or the other teacher in the group).

Mini’s school teach times tables in Years 1,2 and 3, four per year. They combine more and less chalenging times tables each year to provide challenge for more able students without swamping the less able.

So firstly you’re painting with a broad brush, which is ok because everyone and I mean everyone does it.
Secondly you’re conflating two separate education systems. I tried to explain how the Scottish system aims for GIRFEC but you’re not interested in hearing arguements that do not support your theory.
The whole argument is way too complex but how do we get it right? Talking to kids, looking at testing, not ideal, then talking to kids more to find targets. Eventually we, in conversations with kids, try to find routes to what they want to do. In some cases finding positive destinations outside of education (pre school leaving age) for full time training, we also have 2 afternoons per week where they can opt into vocational college courses.
Of course jobs are the issue here imagine them wanting standardized methods to differentiate possible employees for suitability for employment.

Jeez, even as a parent I could see most of that was, er, wrong. 🤦‍♂️

I’m very confused, my son in year 2 is doing his times tables, including 7 & 9x

Do I need to call OFSTED & get the school shut down?

So firstly you’re painting with a broad brush, which is ok because everyone and I mean everyone does it.

That deserves a round of applause.

👏🏽

I think the NC says that children should cover all 12 times table before the end of Y4. The school is free To do these when they want, how they want in this time. Primary teachers please correct if wrong.

The current KPI’s and system are designed to focus/reward based on the lowest achieving .. so if the aim is everyone achieves their potential then the other 95-85% are being failed and the % of kids the “system is for” is depending on funding 5%-15%.

That’s not how Progress 8 works.

Whilst a grade U hurts the most and a lot of effort is put into making sure kids get a grade, someone getting an 8 instead of a 9 is as bad as a kid getting a 3 instead of a 4.

You say your wife is a teacher. Do you talk to her?

erm yep… she along with many of the other older teachers feel very constrained (to use your words) and every time they have adjusted and got something working as best they can with the constraints and limited resources someone like Gove comes and shakes it all up again.

Do I discuss ‘specific constraints’ on an ongoing basis? No … not unless they affect our son because most of them are either specific or about other kids or yet another way to teach something just as they had managed to get the last change/constraints working more or less.

Anywat stevexc, I dont think you realise how contrained teachers are now in what they teach, its Gove you want to direct your displeasure at.

So yes … that’s about the conversation … how constrained they are and how something has just be changed again which is now a bit like the continued absence of the Dolphins (So long and Thanks for all the fish) .. it ceases to be “news”…

All of your assumptions are based on your personal (and pretty out of date) experience, or your son’s, which feels like we’re maybe not getting the whole story.

My son’s isn’t that out of date…. it’s not many years ago since the times tables guidance was made mandatory then (I now learn) changed again… he was specifically affected at the time but this is just another shake-up… like changing to the shanghai-singapore method for 6 months… teaching 3 different ways to do division…

Going back in ancient history when I was at primary we were forced to learn ITA …another failed experiment on kids and from a bigger picture I don’t see this experimentation has changed.

btw. OH was specifically been told not to test certain kids… again not ultra current but in the last 3-4 years after she was given the dubious honour of being a “literacy coordinator”.
That was after 2010 when it was last inspected (and achieved a good report and the inspector overall graded the school as ‘outstanding)… so hard to see how OFSTED will even know given its almost 10 years since the last inspection.

Either way … relating to the specific circumstances at the moment other than GCSE years I totally fail to see how missing a few weeks or months is substantially different academically to changing a method yet again…

So firstly you’re painting with a broad brush, which is ok because everyone and I mean everyone does it.
Secondly you’re conflating two separate education systems. I tried to explain how the Scottish system aims for GIRFEC but you’re not interested in hearing arguements that do not support your theory.

I don’t have any experience with the Scottish system … as above I don’t really follow these in our own because there isn’t much you can do anyway. OH says how they changed something (yet again) and spends hours talking to the other teaching staff on the details

So I completely agree it’s a broad brush… I don’t know how the Scottish system differs but my ‘broad brush view’ is everything keeps being changed… Jnr gets taught one method then complains this is different to last year/term… at which point I find out they changed the methods/testing/KPI’s YET again.

To the teachers, at what KS of English do kids start to learn to pressé? There’d be some cracking work for them here.