Reopening schools question.

If anyone thinks that a return to the classroom while we still have the virus in the community means guaranteed childcare, they’re mistaken.

As I said pages ago … it would really be much simpler if both ends just admit that school is mainly free childcare and social for the overwhelming majority.

Two of my kids friends just took a year off primary and nothing happened academically.

I get the impression that schools up here will be back full time come the restart at the 2nd week of august (one of the main drivers in the slower rate of the easing of restrictions compared to England), which if it does work out, would put a bit of pressure on the English schools to do the same.

We’re down to low single figure deaths, 11 new cases yesterday (yes yes, that’s only known cases ie tested, but a trend is a trend)

Two of my kids friends just took a year off primary and nothing happened academically

Assuming parents homeschooled them properly, then it shouldn’t.
If, on the other hand, they were left to play Xbox all day, then I’d be surprised if they hadn’t fallen behind.

ajantom

Assuming parents homeschooled them properly, then it shouldn’t.
If, on the other hand, they were left to play Xbox all day, then I’d be surprised if they hadn’t fallen behind.

They don’t own an xbox or TV for that matter anyway but they travelled around Africa for a year and haven’t fallen behind at all.

My 10yr old was more than happy self learning with minimal actual interference from us and academically doing seems to be doing much much better than if he was in school (at least his SATS are much much better than the school/teacher predicted).

At the moment he is doing the set work purely because his mother is a teacher at the same school .. at best it has no academic value but I am more concerned he is really starting to hate it. He spends longer pressing refresh to see what picture he is meant to do than doing

it would really be much simpler if both ends just admit that school is mainly free childcare and social for the overwhelming majority.

Could you explain what would be simpler, what the “ends” are and why education isnt important for the “overwhelming majority”?

This is worth a read, its a paper about how much children are likely to contribute to spread.

https://adc.bmj.com/content/archdischild/early/2020/06/16/archdischild-2020-319474.full.pdf

my (6yr old) niece had someone test positive in her bubble at school last friday

school is now shut but theyve not been contact traced yet?

@stevextc I think you’re seeing this from the wrong angle.
Your kid has conscientious parents (one of whom is a teacher).
The kids who have travelled around Africa have (I assume) parents who take an interest in them, teach them things, read to them, etc, etc.

Unfortunately there are a very large number of children who don’t have these advantages.
Their parents don’t read to them, or engage them in learning. Often because those same parents did badly at school, so fail to see any value in education.
They are left to their own devices, and in the current situation are learning precisely zero.
They don’t or can’t access the online learning that the school sets, and parents aren’t trying to educate them themselves.

Case in point my earlier (albeit slightly jokey) story about the kid playing on his Xbox and refusing to talk to me on the phone.
If I was that parent I would have turned of the bloody Xbox and made him talk to his tutor!

This student openly admitted, whilst chatting about hobbies in a PSHE lesson, that he plays Xbox from 6pm until 1-2am every weekday, and then about 12-14 hours a day at weekends. He seemed quite proud of it in fact.
Unfortunately it meant he was getting predictions of 1s and 2s in his GCSE subjects, and he’s not daft by any means.
We were starting to get through to him this year, and his grades had improved, but in no way has the lockdown benefitted him. Apart from his ranking on certain Xbox games.

You may see school as just childcare for the masses, but for many students it’s the only opportunity to better themselves and learn. It’s a bridge to further education and beyond.
Again you may say that they’d be better off not being at school and learning on their own.
For all but a very few that would not work.

This is worth a read

And this…

https://zoonosen.charite.de/fileadmin/user_upload/microsites/m_cc05/virologie-ccm/dateien_upload/Weitere_Dateien/analysis-of-SARS-CoV-2-viral-load-by-patient-age.pdf

Abstract
Data on viral load, as estimated by real-time RT-PCR threshold cycle values from 3,712 COVID-19 patients were analysed to examine the relationship between patient age and SARS-CoV-2 viral load. Analysis of variance of viral loads in patients of different age categories found no significant difference between any pair of age categories including children. In particular, these data indicate that viral loads in the very young do not differ significantly from those of adults. Based on these results, we have to caution against an unlimited re-opening of schools and kindergartens in the present situation. Children may be as infectious as adults.

Their parents don’t read to them, or engage them in learning. Often because those same parents did badly at school, so fail to see any value in education.

youve described by sister-in-law perfectly,

until my brother was furloughed their 8 year old son spent all day, every day playing fortnite on x-box

Just had an email from the council about the school buses.
Running at 25% capacity, no concessionary tickets – it’s going to be messy.

Perhaps a dumb and naive question but here goes anyway….

Why, some 15 weeks after the lockdown started, isn’t there a government issued series of video lessons for each subject available for the kids to watch and for the teachers who are WFH to remotely provide support on?

The big problem that we have as parents trying to home school three kids whilst WFH full time is that we don’t know what’s in the bloody curriculum in the first place. The only help and guidance we can offer is whatever we can remember from 35 years ago.

If we could just download the video of Johnny Ball or whoever teaching factorisation that the kids had already watched, then at least we’d have a fighting chance.

Perhaps a dumb and naive question but here goes anyway….

Why, some 15 weeks after the lockdown started, isn’t there a government issued series of video lessons for each subject available for the kids to watch and for the teachers who are WFH to remotely provide support on?

The big problem that we have as parents trying to home school three kids whilst WFH full time is that we don’t know what’s in the bloody curriculum in the first place. The only help and guidance we can offer is whatever we can remember from 35 years ago.

If we could just download the video of Johnny Ball or whoever teaching factorisation that the kids had already watched, then at least we’d have a fighting chance.

Because the Tory govt don’t give a **** about your child’s education.

Why, some 15 weeks after the lockdown started, isn’t there a government issued series of video lessons for each subject available for the kids to watch and for the teachers who are WFH to remotely provide support on?

R4 Today interviewed head of OFSTED last week

she noted that that theyd suspended all inspections & that they were not in anyway inspecting or measuring how schools are doing remote learning

they also hadnt been consulted about what the governments catchup plan was

there are huge & very worrying holes in the governments school policy, which is why theyll keep blaming the unions/ labour as much as they can

There isn’t a policy, there is an evolving PR campaign.

Perhaps a dumb and naive question but here goes anyway….

Why, some 15 weeks after the lockdown started, isn’t there a government issued series of video lessons for each subject available for the kids to watch and for the teachers who are WFH to remotely provide support on?

The big problem that we have as parents trying to home school three kids whilst WFH full time is that we don’t know what’s in the bloody curriculum in the first place. The only help and guidance we can offer is whatever we can remember from 35 years ago.

If we could just download the video of Johnny Ball or whoever teaching factorisation that the kids had already watched, then at least we’d have a fighting chance.

Not a dumb question at all and one I asked, although not as directly as that, earlier.
It’s a slippery slope though – If you don’t need all those bespoke lesson plans, why do you need to pay for those skills etc. etc.

If we could just download the video of Johnny Ball or whoever teaching factorisation that the kids had already watched, then at least we’d have a fighting chance.

if youre not aware BBC bitesize has a very good curriculum based website, its got better as this has gone on and has been helpful to us

Could you explain what would be simpler, what the “ends” are and why education isnt important for the “overwhelming majority”?

I didn’t say education isn’t important for the overwhelming majority, I said it was free childcare and social. The social part is part of the modern “education” whereas academic learning is now viewed as less important for the majority who are held back academically so that a class can progress together and children can be kept in school until 18.

The curriculum is dumbed down so that almost everyone can get to the end over 14 years after which those that wish can continue. Far more resources are used on those who are struggling whilst the majority are held back.

I’ve nothing against that … certainly not as an ideal as there is plenty of time after 18 though I do worry that spending most of the time not learning and being stimulated can have a detrimental effect.

“simple” is for example just admitting that a child hasn’t been tested in a subject because they already achieved the required level or they need to attend that class because the rules say so.

there are huge & very worrying holes in the governments school policies, which is why theyll keep blaming the unions/ labour as much as they can

Thought I’d fixed it for you but thinking about it I’m not sure they have a policy beyond bullshitting through to the next day

I didn’t say education isn’t important for the overwhelming majority, I said it was free childcare and social. The social part is part of the modern “education” whereas academic learning is now viewed as less important for the majority

Eh?

Could you explain what would be simpler, what the “ends” are

The curriculum is dumbed down so that almost everyone can get to the end over 14 years after which those that wish can continue. Far more resources are used on those who are struggling whilst the majority are held back.

Could you show your working on this?

ajantom

Unfortunately there are a very large number of children who don’t have these advantages.
Their parents don’t read to them, or engage them in learning. Often because those same parents did badly at school, so fail to see any value in education.

We seem to be in groundhog day…. parents are bored at school… do poorly…

They are left to their own devices, and in the current situation are learning precisely zero.
They don’t or can’t access the online learning that the school sets, and parents aren’t trying to educate them themselves.

Yes of course there are vast numbers because there a millions of kids. That doesn’t mean the majority NEED to be in school all the time though or that it benefits them to be there. If they are bored then it can be a negative experience that turns them off learning.

The challenge here is how to make it interesting… and give them access to the material.
My 10yr old specifically asked to just get the past SATS and he would do 1hr/d… and told us he would get a greater depth in everything. We had been told that at best and if he was lucky he might scrape greater depth in literacy… I can quite honestly say we spent a few hours at most over weeks and the rest he did himself from the past papers and marking scheme.
He didn’t “scrape” a greater depth he very easily got it in every paper… and he actually enjoyed those weeks.
Now he is back doing the boring work set he is back to being bored.

If we could just download the video of Johnny Ball or whoever teaching factorisation that the kids had already watched, then at least we’d have a fighting chance.

In 1998/9 He rang into Radio 1 to tell his daughter how her expensive education had been wasted.
I heard this live…after she took this piss out of someone for being a “fish scientist”

Could you show your working on this?

Sure give a pre-80’s GCE maths paper to todays A level maths students.

or if you want to start at the other end explain why it takes 2 yrs to learn times tables?

Sure give a pre-80’s GCE maths paper to todays A level maths students.

Thats just a statement its not evidence. Why would maths student of today be educated to do a paper from pre 80’s? How many people did maths a level pre 80’s and how many now? Also you said

The curriculum is dumbed down

Maths is one tiny part.

And finally if you could give a pre80’s A level Biology student a Biology paper from today they wouldnt have the first clue where to start!

or if you want to start at the other end explain why it takes 2 yrs to learn times tables?

Because different people learn at different speeds? Some might take much longer.

why it takes 2 yrs to learn times tables?

I still don’t really know them.

Mike, aged 42 3/4
A level physics teacher

Thats just a statement its not evidence. Why would maths student of today be educated to do a paper from pre 80’s? How many people did maths a level pre 80’s and how many now? Also you said

I’m talking about giving a 1960’s-70’s Maths O level paper to today’s maths A level students…
Why would they be educated to 1960’s level maths?
That’s the point… or there is no point because for example calculus was pushed to A level and then to university.

Because different people learn at different speeds? Some might take much longer.

Exactly my point… 90% of kids are held back for the 10%…

According to the new National Curriculum 2014 the expectation of times tables in each Year Group is as follows:

Year 2: 2x, 5x, 10x
Year 3: 3x, 4x, 8x
Year 4: 6x, 7x, 9x, 11x, 12x

So maybe 2 weeks work for 90% of the kids or a day or two for 20% dragged out over 3 years so that the 90% can learn at the rate of the 10%

Who’s going to tell him about the further maths papers? That’s what our local schools get the brighter (maths wise) kids working on during their final year. We did AS maths in our final year, but that’s no longer an option, unfortunately.

Sorry but we have a thing called differentiation where lessons are structured to cater for people who learn at different rates. We also have assessment by outcome where effectively the same question is asked but the different detail in the answer hits different levels. And we have, eventually different courses at different levels so I can have a pupil working at N3 and someone else, preferably in a different class, working at N5 (Scottish qualifications N5 equivalent to GCSE credit).

Why, some 15 weeks after the lockdown started, isn’t there a government issued series of video lessons for each subject available for the kids to watch and for the teachers who are WFH to remotely provide support on?

https://www.thenational.academy/

Nothing to do with the Government, all organised by teachers collaboratively.

Government let the cat out the bag on their priorities when they picked the years to go back first.
For them at least, opening schools is about getting Back To Work. That means child care. And there a chunk of families that have similar outlook.
But that doesn’t mean that everyone involved in education from GW down shares that preference. A school near us is opening part time from next week for year fives, because they are the primary kids that need it most. That’s about education.
But there is some more truth in Steve’s posts above, especially regards primary. That times table example rings true – got a five year old who learnt his year two times tables in the few weeks before Easter because his sister was doing them. He wouldn’t have that push in the classroom, he hasn’t.
Seems to me that the kids seem to be graded three ways- below expected; expected level; or exceeding. All relative to the curriculum. And the majority of the resources are directed at bringing the “below expected” up a level because that’s how the teachers are graded.
They’ve lost sight of teaching a child to fulfill their potential and having expectation relative to their potential ability.

So maybe 2 weeks work for 90% of the kids or a day or two for 20% dragged out over 3 years so that the 90% can learn at the rate of the 10%

Jesus, two weeks of learning nothing but times tables. That would put everyone off maths for life!

You do realise they are being taught a lot of other complicated academic stuff at the same time?

And there are plenty of other non-academic things being taught in those years that wouldn’t have been taught in the 60s/70s/80s that might possibly be more important than times tables – like respect, equality, diversity, tolerance

Seems to me that the kids seem to be graded three ways- below expected; expected level; or exceeding. All relative to the curriculum. And the majority of the resources are directed at bringing the “below expected” up a level because that’s how the teachers are graded.
They’ve lost sight of teaching a child to fulfill their potential and having expectation relative to their potential ability.

This is exactly my kids’ experience. Their primary school is focussed on working to bring everyone up to the expected level, which is very basic and any kids who are above this get significantly reduced attention. When I ask for harder work for them I get fobbed off.
The school got picked up in the recent OFSTED for not trying to excel their more able pupils.

Exactly my point… 90% of kids are held back for the 10%…

Dear god, I hope you didnt do stats!!! You really do have no clue

But there is some more truth in Steve’s posts above, especially regards primary. That times table example rings true – got a five year old who learnt his year two times tables in the few weeks before Easter because his sister was doing them. He wouldn’t have that push in the classroom, he hasn’t.

Jesus, two weeks of learning nothing but times tables. That would put everyone off maths for life!

It’s hardly 2 weeks of solid times tables … 1 hour a day and then another 30 mins recap
Cripes its only 12 numbers… we used to have sesame street etc before we even started school…

And the 3 years is no longer just a guideline its now mandatory to NOT teach times tables outside of the designated year.

Seems to me that the kids seem to be graded three ways- below expected; expected level; or exceeding. All relative to the curriculum. And the majority of the resources are directed at bringing the “below expected” up a level because that’s how the teachers are graded.
They’ve lost sight of teaching a child to fulfill their potential and having expectation relative to their potential ability.

and then holding back the kids who have just naturally learned.

You do realise they are being taught a lot of other complicated academic stuff at the same time?

No… what I see is they are being taught a lot of …

And there are plenty of other non-academic things being taught in those years that wouldn’t have been taught in the 60s/70s/80s that might possibly be more important than times tables – like respect, equality, diversity, tolerance

Hence why I said most of the kids are not going to be academically affected by a week or even a year away from school.
We don’t get emails from school saying how important it is Jnr doesn’t miss a day in case he falls behind on non academic things… We get emails saying how vitally important it is he doesn’t miss a day or his entire academic life will be irretrievably ruined.

I’ve yet to see anyone saying “schools must reopen or we won’t be able to teach respect, equality, diversity, tolerance I just see academic and free childcare.

Schools aren’t a very efficient way of providing an education but I doubt we’re prepared to pay for the sort of one to one schooling that is. It would probably help if politics didn’t keep getting involved.

Agree that for many the system doesn’t push the kids to achieve but then teachers are expected to fill the voids in social care these days, providing food parcels etc.and giving vulnerable kids respite from abusive parents according to the reasons the government gave for keeping schools open. All detracts from what they are trained to do. In many deprived areas the main function of schools is to keep ferral kids off the streets.

Having said that my education back in the eighties was patchy and back then we didn’t have challenged kids, just ones that needed a clip round the ear. I think teachers have it much harder now, but then that’s the career choice they made, teachers have been pulled from pillar to post for years now, had their credibility and respect destroyed with the public so shouldnt be too shocked with current conditions.

There are kids who could be pushed further but its nothing like 90 and 10.

Badly behaved kids can ruin lessons but good schools are onto this – generally my experience of (primary) schools is that the kids that most need extra help get it, sometimes getting a LSA to themselves.

…& the most advanced kids are that way because of what goes on at home.

Shhhssss youre not allowed to tutor your kids in case it disadvantages the disadvantaged, vulnerable, socially marginalised, economically inactive kids whose parent DGAS.

& the most advanced kids are that way because of what goes on at home

Obviously home has a massive impact but some are just that way because they are clever.

Shhhssss youre not allowed to tutor your kids in case it disadvantages the disadvantaged, vulnerable, socially marginalised, economically inactive kids whose parent DGAS.

I think if the last few months have taught us anything its that helping your kids is a good thing. I have never seen a teacher anywhere say that patents shouldnt help.

I’ve seen teachers complain about tutoring.