Religion. Again.

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  • Religion. Again.
  • Bill Passed In Michigan House Could Exempt Medical Personnel From Treating Gay People

    Not surprisingly, the reality is not quite so dramatic.

    However, it does raise the possibility that if a medical professional went to court for refusing to treat a gay patient, they would have to show exactly which bit of the bible prohibits them from doing so.
    Tricky.

    Premier Icon BoardinBob
    Subscriber

    They’ll probably pull this one out and argue the technicalities

    Leviticus 20:13
    “‘If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.

    iolo
    Member

    Don’t you just love some of the shit printed in the book of lies (bible)?
    And then some brainless homophobic racist lowlife sad excuse for a human uses chapters to justify evil bullshit.
    Unbelievable.

    Premier Icon cloudnine
    Subscriber

    Surely if you are into religion then the 10 commandments overrides the other crap. Nothing about being gay in the top ten. Carry on as you were gay people.

    PrinceJohn
    Member

    Saw in the news this morning another UKIP mp having difficulty when expressing their opinion.

    So what’s worse? The people who are actually out there saying they hate homosexuals/muslims/insert other option or… those that publicly say we have no issue with homosexuals/muslims/insert other option, but behind closed doors out of the public eye have those prejudices?

    That’s the usual one to crop up in internet arguments, however, I suspect a court of law would go in to the motives behind the actions in a more depth.
    First of all, lesbians are OK then as they don’t get a mention in the bible?
    Secondly, would someone have to prove they live their whole life according to the bible, including the bits about slaves from neighbouring countries, clothes of mixed cloth and so on, to justify leaving someone to die?

    teef
    Member

    I wouldn’t ever use the Bible as a good source of values or principles – it supports Slavery:

    Exodus 21:
    ‘If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything. 3 If he comes alone, he is to go free alone; but if he has a wife when he comes, she is to go with him. 4 If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free.’

    That’s sort of my point, teef.
    These arguments go round and round on the internet and never get resolved.
    There is now a remote possiblity that the old christian trope of “If you were on trial for christianity, would there be enough evidence to convict you?” could come true.
    Someone may have to stand in court and explain why they refused to load an injured gay man in to their ambulance, while wearing a poly-cotton shirt.

    Premier Icon zippykona
    Subscriber

    Would a vicar reading out the gay killing bit in church be guilty of a hate crime?

    emsz
    Member

    1. I don’t live in Michigan, so don’t care
    2. Most doctors I’ve met couldn’t give a fig about a persons sexuality.
    3. In an A&E I rock up with my leg all bust up ‘cos I’ve come off my bike, I doubt very much it’ll be a case of “well….I could help you but the bible tells me..”

    most people who want to be doctors want to help people, regardless.

    Junkyard
    Member

    7 They fought against Midian, as the Lord commanded Moses, and killed every man. 8 Among their victims were Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur and Reba—the five kings of Midian. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. 9 The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. 10 They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps. 11 They took all the plunder and spoils, including the people and animals, 12 and brought the captives, spoils and plunder to Moses and Eleazar the priest and the Israelite assembly at their camp on the plains of Moab, by the Jordan across from Jericho.

    13 Moses, Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. 14 Moses was angry with the officers of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—who returned from the battle.

    15 “Have you allowed all the women to live?” he asked them. 16 “They were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the Lord in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the Lord’s people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
    Numbers 31

    Who amongst us would not set their moral compass by this?

    Oh my mistake I am not gay so I dont care 😕

    teef
    Member

    I doubt very much it’ll be a case of “well….I could help you but the bible tells me..”

    They say that in Ireland:

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/apr/08/abortion-refusal-death-ireland-hindu-woman

    jimjam
    Member

    In Northern Ireland the DUP are trying to introduce a “conscience clause” into the bill of rights which will effectively do something similar to the OP.

    Link Here

    Although the whole thing was started over a cake of all things, the wider implications are pretty sinister.

    I wouldn’t ever use the Bible as a good source of values or principles – it supports Slavery:

    Exodus 21:
    ‘If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything. 3 If he comes alone, he is to go free alone; but if he has a wife when he comes, she is to go with him. 4 If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free.’

    This intrigued me enough to do some googling.

    Question: “Does the Bible condone slavery?”

    Answer: There is a tendency to look at slavery as something of the past. But it is estimated that there are today over 27 million people in the world who are subject to slavery: forced labor, sex trade, inheritable property, etc. As those who have been redeemed from the slavery of sin, followers of Jesus Christ should be the foremost champions of ending human slavery in the world today. The question arises, though, why does the Bible not speak out strongly against slavery? Why does the Bible, in fact, seem to support the practice of human slavery?

    The Bible does not specifically condemn the practice of slavery. It gives instructions on how slaves should be treated (Deuteronomy 15:12-15; Ephesians 6:9; Colossians 4:1), but does not outlaw slavery altogether. Many see this as the Bible condoning all forms of slavery. What many fail to understand is that slavery in biblical times was very different from the slavery that was practiced in the past few centuries in many parts of the world. The slavery in the Bible was not based exclusively on race. People were not enslaved because of their nationality or the color of their skin. In Bible times, slavery was based more on economics; it was a matter of social status. People sold themselves as slaves when they could not pay their debts or provide for their families. In New Testament times, sometimes doctors, lawyers, and even politicians were slaves of someone else. Some people actually chose to be slaves so as to have all their needs provided for by their masters.

    The slavery of the past few centuries was often based exclusively on skin color. In the United States, many black people were considered slaves because of their nationality; many slave owners truly believed black people to be inferior human beings. The Bible condemns race-based slavery in that it teaches that all men are created by God and made in His image (Genesis 1:27). At the same time, the Old Testament did allow for economic-based slavery and regulated it. The key issue is that the slavery the Bible allowed for in no way resembled the racial slavery that plagued our world in the past few centuries.

    In addition, both the Old and New Testaments condemn the practice of “man-stealing,” which is what happened in Africa in the 19th century. Africans were rounded up by slave-hunters, who sold them to slave-traders, who brought them to the New World to work on plantations and farms. This practice is abhorrent to God. In fact, the penalty for such a crime in the Mosaic Law was death: “Anyone who kidnaps another and either sells him or still has him when he is caught must be put to death” (Exodus 21:16). Similarly, in the New Testament, slave-traders are listed among those who are “ungodly and sinful” and are in the same category as those who kill their fathers or mothers, murderers, adulterers and perverts, and liars and perjurers (1 Timothy 1:8–10).

    Interesting how different, even opposite, conclusions are reached from looking at these things literally and in isolation, or with some context.

    emsz
    Member

    I don’t live in Ireland either, and I’m unlikely to need an abortion TBH

    dannyh
    Member

    And then some brainless homophobic racist lowlife sad excuse for a human uses chapters to justify evil bullshit.
    Unbelievable.

    Sadly I’d say ‘believable’. Very believable. The rest of us just need to hold these idiots to account and the resulting ridicule they deserve. The vast majority (just like most bullies) will go away. Some will stick around, so you just have keep pointing and laughing until they shuffle off the mortal coil…..

    teef
    Member

    I don’t live in Ireland either, and I’m unlikely to need an abortion TBH

    ‘No Man is an Island’

    No man is an island entire of itself; every man
    is a piece of the continent, a part of the main;
    if a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe
    is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as
    well as any manner of thy friends or of thine
    own were; any man’s death diminishes me,
    because I am involved in mankind.
    And therefore never send to know for whom
    the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.

    don’t live in Ireland either, and I’m unlikely to need an abortion

    But you’re a cyclist, you must eat cake.

    5thElefant
    Member

    My personal favourite bible passage is Ezekiel 23:20

    19″Yet she multiplied her harlotries, remembering the days of her youth, when she played the harlot in the land of Egypt. 20″She lusted after their paramours, whose flesh is like the flesh of donkeys and whose issue is like the issue of horses. 21″Thus you longed for the lewdness of your youth, when the Egyptians handled your bosom because of the breasts of your youth.

    ElShalimo
    Member

    Number 20 must smart a bit afterwards

    Interesting post TGA…..

    …Aristotle had some interesting things to say about slaves. Shall we discard his writings too?

    I’m not much of a scholar, so I’ve had to do more googling! I wonder if he too was influenced by the culture/standards of his day? Hard to see how one wouldn’t be really, even if only a little bit. I would be reluctant to discard every opinion someone held because I didn’t agree with one of them.

    Undoubtedly, hence reviewing OT through 21C lenses is a bit silly really. Especially if that leads to a religion v xxxx conclusion. The Bible and classical writings are great sources for understanding the culture of earlier periods. The poetry in the former is quite beautiful at times (until it gets interpreted literally.)

    Tbc, my discard comment was a general one not related to your previous post. I agree with your comments.

    Premier Icon slowoldman
    Subscriber

    I wonder if he too was influenced by the culture/standards of his day?

    Well of course. Unfortunately it seems that some are more influenced by the culture/standards of writings several thousands of years old.

    Unfortunately it seems that some are more influenced by the culture/standards of writings several thousands of years old.

    When it’s people taking such writings out of context to justify their hatred and mistreatment of others, then I wholeheartedly agree. The question of context crops up regularly in religion threads, but to my mind it must apply to both ‘sides’.

    Unfortunately it seems that some are more influenced by the culture/standards of writings several thousands of years old.

    I would take Aristotle and Kant and parts of many different religious texts above Russell Brand any day. Contemporary voices are not necessarily better!

    TurnerGuy
    Member

    Discussion on LBC at the moment about how discrimination against aetheists and humanists is increasing around the world.

    Saudi have even declared aethism as bad as terrorism :

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/saudi-arabia-declares-all-atheists-are-terrorists-in-new-law-to-crack-down-on-political-dissidents-9228389.html

    Don’t you just love some of the shit printed in the book of lies (bible)?
    And then some brainless homophobic racist lowlife sad excuse for a human uses chapters to justify evil bullshit.
    Unbelievable.

    If you believe the Bible and all the other nonsense that goes along with it, racism, homophobia, misogyny are par for the course. Very easily backed up by the scripture. That despicable “God hates fags” church, I found easier to understand* than people who believe in the Bible but also accept other people.

    *I think God, quite clearly, does hate fags! Lucky he’s not real and they can carry on being happy…

    Premier Icon nickc
    Subscriber

    I would take Aristotle and Kant and parts of many different religious texts above Russell Brand any day. Contemporary voices are not necessarily better!

    hmmm, but surely these voices were contemporary at some point. I’m not sure I’d want to live by the Deontical school of ethics anyway, but interesting that you chose Kant 😉

    Premier Icon slowoldman
    Subscriber

    I would take Aristotle and Kant and parts of many different religious texts above Russell Brand any day. Contemporary voices are not necessarily better!

    Yes I agree with that but I think there is also the question of whether some ancient writings are applicable today when taken literally, given what has been learned in the interim period.

    MrSalmon
    Member

    Undoubtedly, hence reviewing OT through 21C lenses is a bit silly really.

    That makes perfect sense, but doesn’t the same apply to the NT?
    One of the bits that’s never made sense to me is the cherry picking of which (unsavoury) bits to wave away as allegorical, or say meanings have changed over time- which they very likely have- and which bits to keep and assume they mean pretty much what they say.

    😀

    (More categorical than consequential!)

    Edit for X posts: yes applies to all texts, sources and opinions, A reason why everyone should be taught history properly.

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    One of the bits that’s never made sense to me is the cherry picking of which (unsavoury) bits to wave away as allegorical, or say meanings have changed over time- which they very likely have- and which bits to keep and assume they mean pretty much what they say.

    Why not? We’re always going on on here about how things have changed and there’s lots of crazy stuff in there. So why not pick and choose?

    The Bible has always been a subject of study, discussion and interpretation. That’s why it’s a collection of books by different authors.

    ninfan
    Member

    Surely we allow religious and moral beliefs to affect delivery of medical treatment in the UK as well though? For example doctors can opt out of dealing with abortion or fertility treatment. Obviously this is normally done in a discreet way by referring them on to another doctor, and therefore ensures the rights of the doctor not to do something they disagree with are respected without affecting the medical care the patient receives. Seems to have worked ok for a few decades now.

    Doesn’t tolerance and diversity work both ways?

    Premier Icon Cougar
    Subscriber

    So why not pick and choose?

    Seriously, this again?

    Because the bible is supposed to be the word of god; that is, it’s a collection of texts written by people whom god has purportedly spoken through or otherwise directed.

    So if you can pick and choose, what are you saying? That god was wrong? Or that it’s “just” a book?

    If you’re a Xtian, isn’t it somewhat problematic to be second-guessing your god?

    scotroutes
    Member

    The pick and choose option only applies if you live within Rome and wear a pointy hat. No one else is appointed by God and therefore has the ability to see His thoughts on the matter in order to communicate them to the rest of us.

    Premier Icon Cougar
    Subscriber

    Quite.

    The only way this makes any sense is if the Pope pops up one day going “hang on a minute lads, I’ve just got off the blower with god and his lad, and they reckon we’ve got it all wrong. Turns out, gaying is all right after all, who knew!”

    Reform needs to happen because, as the atheists gleefully point out at any given opportunity, the Bible is contradictory and its relevance is increasingly incompatible with modern society (and law). The tracts about slavery, infidelity, incest and so on were probably quite pertinent a couple of millennia back; these days not so much.

    But any such reform needs to come from the top down (and will probably cause a Bible 2.0 schism); this wooly “well, we believe this bit but not that bit, this is a metaphor except when it isn’t, and it’s open to interpretation anyway, but it’s still the word of god how dare you question it” approach at the ground level is helping no-one.

    jonba
    Member

    The current pope is fairly progressive. He has made several changes to doctrine that have moved the Catholic church forward in a positive way. I think he is a good influence on the church. Still a long way to go but he cannot change things too dramatically too quickly as he has to gather support from cardinals and bishops.

    I like this bible quote and find it oddly overlooked.

    John 13:34-35 “A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you are also to love one another. By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”

    5thElefant
    Member

    That passage should have come with a caveat that the other party should be above the age of consent.

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