One thing I’ve learnt is that the vast majority of folk are crap at mental maths, and most tbh are crap with a calculator/computer too.

Age is no barrier to inability.

Sad that teachers think that this is beyond ALL kids – it shouldn’t be.

At the primary I taught at there was a lovely lad called Ian. He was friendly, helpful, and caring. He also had Downs Syndrome and, at the age of ten, still working on counting with single digit numbers and threading beads onto strings.

Did his teacher just have low expectations? Should that school’s head be fired if Ian failed his times table test in year 6?

“All I can say about this is that my friends who are teachers have spent the last 4 saying that the Conservative education policies are indicative of people who have have no idea what they are talking about riding roughshod over the input of teachers in the name of political point scoring with their equally opinionated and ill-informed core voters.”

And all universities and employers say is that they are having to provide new students / recruits with remedial learning for basic numeracy, literacy and verbal reasoning.

The reason that the UK has slipped so far down the international league tables is because these things are not seen as important in schools but are seen as important by just about everyone else – it’s one of the reasons that students from “traditional” / regressive education systems like France are securing so many of the good jobs in the south east.

As ever government focuses on big things they think work, or should work. So we are back to more tests and standards, class sizes and budgets etc. I mean, in the overall plan of things (effort vs improved learning) things like class sizes, homework and fixed exams do very little.

What actually works is very good teaching. And to get that to work, you need to train teachers, invest in teachers, support teachers and then allow them to be good teachers.

The things that work are self reported grades, a focus on the thinking process (not outcomes), formative evaluation, micro teaching, feedback, class discussion, responsiveness of the teacher and relationship between teacher and pupils.

A classroom that meets the above strategies however does not an election winning campaign make.

One thing that is different in Scotland to England (and long term will make a massive difference) is that the dirty business of teaching and learning has been removed from government ministers meddling so much. It is not perfect, but as our new exams settle down (much like Curriculum for Excellence is), it will make a big difference.

Not a single pupil at £30,000 a year boarding schools Eton, Harrow and Marlborough attained the Government’s benchmark of five GCSEs at grades A*-C, including maths and English.

– http://www.hmc.org.uk/blog/britains-exclusive-boarding-schools-including-eton-harrow-plummet-bottom-gcse-league-table/

What actually works is very good teaching. And to get that to work, you need to train teachers, invest in teachers, support teachers and then allow them to be good teachers.

The things that work are self reported grades, a focus on the thinking process (not outcomes), formative evaluation, micro teaching, feedback, class discussion, responsiveness of the teacher and relationship between teacher and pupils.

A classroom that meets the above strategies however does not an election winning campaign make.
Make that person the education secretary please.

[/quote]

all universities and employers say is that they are having to provide new students / recruits with remedial learning for basic numeracy, literacy and verbal reasoning.

What do you expect when we have taught people to pass exams rather than comprehend – recite the times table rather than understand the process.
If you measure the “success” of a school very narrowly then [ some of] the heads will focus on just passing exams as that is what they and the school are judged on.

As every party want to “improve” education they will put pressure on the results.

Mike they failed to recognise the International GCSE they sit there so it is a bit unfair IMHO to use this as stick with which to beat the posh elitist fee paying highly aspirational schools

So policy is based on those with illiterate parents or suffering from conditions such as Downs???

The wail headline and article is hilarious. Why did these schools drop? Hmmm. Put them on the failing list for choosing different exams. Heaven forbid they might choose pre-u instead of rote learning modulised a levels!!

But on the point of keeping politicians out if education – 100% agree. Then there will be no one else to shift the blame to.

So policy is based on those with illiterate parents or suffering from conditions such as Downs???

Yes that is definitely what they said and meant …the education system has not let you down 😕

Mike they failed to recognise the International GCSE they sit there so it is a bit unfair IMHO to use this as stick with which to beat the posh elitist fee paying highly aspirational schools that choose exams where cash seems to buy results, that are now pee’d off as they have been rumbled.

FTFY
😉
(For what it is worth, having worked with a number of private schools over the last 10 years, they do seem to do well at the ‘beyond an exam grade’ aspect of learning and life. I also am not familiar enough with iGCES to make a judgement)

I also think we have an issue that is not just government requiring a narrow set of test results – I think there are a bunch of parents out there who want A and A*, and nothing else matters to get into your university of choice. They are ‘snowplough’ parents, where every possible failure or hurdle has to be removed from their child’s path, where exams and all activities must have a certificate and pass mark, and where personal over confidence seems to be the most valued personality trait going. As an example of this, my kids attend what is supposedly one of the best state schools going – it has huge exam pass rates. It also has the highest drop out rate in the first year of university of any school in Scotland… So we can turn out hundreds of Tarquin’s and Jemima’s with 10 A’s – but they have deep emotional, social and mental issues to take forward into life. Great.

And I know it is not perfect, but again look at the core of the Scottish curriculum – it is all about successful, adaptable, resilient learners who can collaborate with others.
http://www.educationscotland.gov.uk/thecurriculum/whatiscurriculumforexcellence/thepurposeofthecurriculum/index.asp

Yes who was it he said that teaching around the syllabus was a waste of time?!?

Mike they failed to recognise the International GCSE they sit there so it is a bit unfair IMHO to use this as stick with which to beat the posh elitist fee paying highly aspirational schools

I know; wouldn’t it be nice if state schools could also choose to ignore government-inflicted targets and instead do what they feel is best for their students?

Being able to recite the 12 times table from memory has little practical application in our post decimalization world. We no longer use £s, shillings and pence and no longer deal in dozens and gross. I belive ther reason that kids don’t know their 12 times table now, is because they only have to teach up to the 10 times table in middle scholol nowadays.

As a target for academic rigour, you might tas well say they should be able to decline 15 different types of Latin verb, it has about as much use.

Perhaps a more relevant target might be to make kids comfortable in doing basic arithmetic in hexadecimal. Do code monkleys still need to do that sort of thing?

miketually – Member
I know; wouldn’t it be nice if state schools could also choose to ignore government-inflicted targets and instead do what they feel is best for their students?

Indeed.

I belive ther reason that kids don’t know their 12 times table now, is because they only have to teach up to the 10 times table in middle scholol nowadays.

I doubt there’s a primary school in the country that doesn’t teach up to 12×12. This issue isn’t with the idea of teaching multiplication tables, it’s the idea of using a test on them as an accountability measure* and then setting the target as a blanket 100% when anyone with any real world experience of schools knows that this is just nonsense.

*this pretty much means the head teacher is fired if the target’s not met

Basically, Acadamy chains would take over by force schools that are deemed to require improvement. Lots of the academy chains are run by… You guessed it… Tories. Academies are not good places to work, and put huge pressure on their staff. There have also been some very important reports of financial irregularities in some Academies, and most importantly, there is no concrete evidence that they actually do a better job than anyone else. He knows teachers hate him anyway, so he has lost our vote. Therefore, he has nothing to lose from playing politics with education. Ultimately, the most important thing in a school is motivated staff. And he just doesn’t get it.

A teacher/friend’s input.

As for the freedom to choose its one of those its both good and its bad and its an overused right wing meme as , in education, it is largely unachievable.
Most people have a fairly limited choice of the school they attend as both geography and funds limit the choice.
What we need to do is also eliminate the “postcode lottery” aspect of education and try to ensure each child gets the same access/opportunity irrespective of location [ and of course wealth]. To achieve this you need to have a fairly standard “offer”. Choice is largely illusionary and would just lead to a patch work quilt of provision. With boarders and fees you can abandon your child to any institution you please so choice is real.

I assume we were briefly going to have a grown up debate without the trolling….but I may be being naive there

Yes who was it he said that teaching around the syllabus was a waste of time?!?

What I actually said was its a waste of time in relation to exam results as it is not tested. Still isnt.

they should be able to decline 15 different types of Latin verb

This would be incredibly difficult as you conjugate verbs! Declensions are for nouns etc.

😀 Standards 😀

Maybe Latin grammar at 11 too!!!

It’s tested in some exams but they seem to be out of favour – oh and the odd interview.

they should be able to decline 15 different types of Latin verb
This would be incredibly difficult as you conjugate verbs! Declensions are for nouns etc.

Ah, that’s why I flunked my Latin O-level then.

I’m a victim of a failed education system!

Maybe Latin grammar at 11 too

You are joking, right? Most people in this country can’t order a pizza in another [living] language and you’re proposing teaching them a dead one?

Surely not??

It’s all a bit outdated really…

I’m looking forward to metric time

Latin? Pfft!

“dos cervezas por favor”

Any more johnny-foreigner language than that and you can’t even count yourself as British. Actually … that should be…

“DOS… CERVASAS…POR…FAVOR!!”

“Education is what survives when what has been learned has been forgotten.”

I didn’t really like the way maths was taught when I was at school. A lot of it was just thrown at me without any context or meaning as how it could be useful or relevant.

Why should I care than the differential of x(cubed) is 3x(squared)

It took a sympathetic physics teacher to fill in the gaps, he showed me that the differential of velocity was acceleration, the integral of velocity was distance travelled etc. Now it made sense, it had meaning to me.

Too much of what is thrown at children these days is just information without context, designed to pass exams and then be discarded.

I don’t think its a massive stretch to have 11 years know there 12 times table but should we not be asking what the point of that knowledge is?

Ah, that’s why I flunked my Latin O-level then.

I won’t hold it against you – the great merit of a classical education is that it allows you to make lots of smart arse remarks on the internet!

Interesting article by Zoe Williams:

It’s time ministers realised that teachers do really want to teach

Now we’re back to square one: a picture in which governments want the best for children, and schools don’t; governments drive learning by setting targets for schools, who would otherwise just make endless necklaces out of macaroni.

Testing young children doesn’t improve their reading, any more than taking the temperature will make it snow.

I was meaning to your something like that earlier, but trying to write this sodding paper on EVs instead.

What exactly do these governments think teachers want to do? They work extremely long hours, often taking work home that will keep them up until 11pm just to finish…. Why would they be teachers if they were not keen to improve the prospects and skills of the kids they deal with? And yet all we every hear is meddling, demonizing, threats and more testing (which that columnist summed up well as just a distraction from actually teaching and enthusing).

Which counties have the highest results in internationally recognised testing? Of us it’s the ones where the kids start school later (7 or thereabout), and don’t spend all their time being tested and scared of being tested (and, as was mentioned above therefore concentrate on passing tests, rather than actually understanding what the subject entails).

This last point is so well known (outside of Westminster, it seems) that it’s even known and named as “Strategic Learning” and work going back to 1976 identified this (Marton and Säljö)

“Strategic Learning – this has been identified as a third catagory of learning. The approach focuses on the end product – the marks, with the main aim being to pass. It means the student chases grades and only learns what looks necessary, thus there is no linking and little retention”
-Whisker, The Postgraduate Research Handbook, 2008 [2nd ed]

(other references of note, Entwistle and Ramsden, 1983 and Ramsden 1979).

However I am not in the last bit surprised to see this “modern, progressive” research ignored, especially by the current lot….

The current lot want to take the education system back to some sepia-tinted 1950’s utopia that never actually existed

The current lot want to take the education system back to some sepia-tinted 1950’s utopia that never actually existed

And for all schools to be above average.

The current lot want to take the education system back to some sepia-tinted 1950’s utopia that never actually existed

but at least they expected numeracy and literacy to be good, even if it was actually much worse

exactly:

The education secretary’s bellicose mood takes practical shape with this suggestion: any English primary school that can’t drill times tables into every pupil by the age of 11 will be taken over by new management. Since there will always, in every school, be one kid who can’t manage it, the next government will, some time in 2017, be looking for 17,000 new headteachers. But that is by no means the most glaring flaw in Morgan’s plan.

*”I was meaning to your write – bloomin phone/swype – sorry folks.