http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-31079515

How are they actually going to make these lofty aims happen?

If they’re stopping at 12 does this mean we’re going to return to £sd ? Now that would appeal to the Ukippers…

Much like Latin, making quills from feathers, and lighting fires by rubbing sticks together, this is an important part of modern education.

Other than make more acadmies and bring in super heads theres no policies

More than a bit infuriating as its been shown that ever since we began testing kids (more than any other country) our position moved down the league tables. It would be better if we tried educating kids rather than training them how to do exams.

Moar academies!
Moar free schools!
Moar spellin!
Moar grammer!

I wouldn’t call being able to recite the 12 times table by age 11 a ‘lofty’ aim. How about having the basics of a second language down instead?

I think being 23rd in a league table highlights one thing, other countries are doing it much better. How about developing an education strategy based on the methods proven elsewhere instead of this pig headed UK knows best attitude.

I think all this shows is simply setting targets effects the process – classical management theory!

Govt would be best to leave the education system to educate pupils, rather than jump on the latest “incentive” to address x, y and z. By doing this another area of the curriculum by definition must be neglected, compounding the problem.

The Sunday Times says that as part of the proposed measures, children would have to pass tests in long division and multiplication before they started secondary school.

Key Stage Two tests already include questions on times tables and long division but pupils are not required to answer them correctly.

What if said 11 year olds fail the test? Will they have to remain in primary school until they do? 🙄

All children in England will need to know up to their 12 times table when they leave primary school under plans announced by the education secretary.

Is it just me that was surprised they didn’t?

I is confused. My 8yo is learning his times tables, and I had the impression that the expectation is that most kids in his class will know them by the time they finish this year (Y3) (one kid in the class has already completed the set of exercises less than half way through the year).

(yes I know there are other things in that article, but it is the one you picked on)

I wouldn’t call being able to recite the 12 times table by age 11 a ‘lofty’ aim.

I is confused.

How are they actually going to make these lofty aims happen?

I’m pretty sure I detect some sarcasm in the OP.

An improvement in spelling and grammar standards wouldn’t go amiss.

Grammar, spelling(reading) and times tables starts at home. Schools help shape, develop and provide opportunities. But 90% of basics are picked up from parents. Please let schools bed things in and stop changing things to justify one’s new job.

Why does the child in my bottom set have difficulties with writing and numeracy? Might have something to do with the black with dirt white shirt he has on and the 2 bottles of fizzy sugar drink with the packet of mint sweets that consitute his lunch. Neglect is far more common than you might realise.

Times tables are bit irrelevant in an age where everyone has a calculator in their pocket. ‘Maths’ lessons should focus more on real life maths that adults will need imo; mortgages, loans, credit cards and about how interest rates work would be start. After that income tax, pensions and savings plans.

Times tables are bit irrelevant in an age where everyone has a calculator in their pocket.

Disagree. Unless someone has some basic mental arithmetic skills they may not know whether an answer obtained by calculator is in the right ballpark or out by a factor of 10 or more.

Not that it’s a recent thing. I remember buying a tumble drier about 25 yrs ago and the sales assistant needed a calculator to find out that my chosen deposit of £19.99 left a balance of £100.00.

I did A Level maths, Computer Science degree and I work as a Software Engineer, and never really known my times tables or generally any good at mental arithmetic. I’m no good with parrot fashion learning, and to be honest I’ve never needed to know the stuff.

Myth is Einstein didn’t learn his times tables either, though read many thinks saying that’s simply a myth and not true, although they say he was excellent at Maths early on at school which doesn’t answer whether he was good at times tables.

Not that it’s a recent thing. I remember buying a tumble drier about 25 yrs ago and the sales assistant needed a calculator to find out that my chosen deposit of £19.99 left a balance of £100.00.

Like when your shopping comes to £15.53, and you hand over £20.53 in cash so you get a 5er note change, some shop assistants just don’t get it

I’m no good with parrot fashion learning,

But I imagine you can do 4 * 128 without much thought 🙂

I’ve always been terrible at mental arithmetic. At primary school, we had to listen to tapes of the times tables set to music, then do a test. You started with the two times table, and if you passed, the next week you did the three times table. It didn’t really work me, I was stuck on the three times table for aaages. At high school, I remember my maths teacher being amazed that I’d got 96% in algebra, 100% in shape and space, 87% in statistics… and 17% in number.

It’s a bit of a flawed policy to hold students back because of a weakness in one area, especially if they excel in others. I wish I was better at mental arithmetic, but I can’t say that my lack of ability in that area (or interest, to be honest) has ever held me back in life.

They do plenty of times tables already – age 8 ish they did a test every week and gradually stepped up in difficulty. Always done in random order so couldn’t learn parrot fashion.

Before Christmas every friday they had little challege test – 12×12 matrix (again random order 1-12 on each axis) and try to do as many as possible in 5 minutes. Some managed all 144 which is actually quite tricky in the time allowed – you try it.

And success in all this is down to parents giving a **** and spending a little time practicing with them.

deadkenny – Member
I did A Level maths, Computer Science degree and I work as a Software Engineer, and never really known my times tables or generally any good at mental arithmetic. I’m no good with parrot fashion learning, and to be honest I’ve never needed to know the stuff….

You work for Microsoft, dont you? 🙂

(Sorry, irresistible)

Perhaps they should teach kids the Trachtenberg Method. Makes anyone look like a genius.

To be honest, doing tedious exercise books full of sums was boring. Algebra, differential equations, mechanics equations in physics, etc on the other hand, far more interesting.

Cougar – Moderator
All children in England will need to know up to their 12 times table when they leave primary school under plans announced by the education secretary.
Is it just me that was surprised they didn’t?

No. Me too. Sad that basics like tables are an issue now. Just learn the bloody things. It’s not hard and you have that for life.

I was always terrible at memorizing the times tables, but I could always do the maths in my head quicker than 99% of the people could go through the times tables to get to an answer, which annoyed my teacher as you weren’t meant to be able to do that till secondary school…

wouldn’t call being able to recite the 12 times table by age 11 a ‘lofty’ aim.

I’m pretty sure I detect some sarcasm in the OP.

Everyone being able to do the times tables and grammar is lofty. No sarcasm. Whilst improving grammar and maths is obviously a good idea some real policies that would help would be nice.
As for the international tables well if we want to do better in the pisa tests we should teach to those tests and skills like many at the top of the leagues do, but creatvity and problem solving skills would be lost.

It’s not hard

It is for some. Plus, it’s better to understand the concepts behind numbers than simply learn the tables off by heart. However policies like this put pressure on learning the chant rather than understanding.

Yes, let’s just allow the kids to sit around and feel the numbers and then discuss with feedback….

Some things just need to be learned. They form the basics of everything else. Get on with it.

Tables are important to support the patterns seen in more complex calculations. My daughter 11 has just sneaked into the middle “ok” stream of maths lessons in primary school and happily reeled off the 12 times table when this story came on the radio.

It’s not difficult, but may require effort by both the child and parent.

not difficult, but may require effort by both the child and parent.

For most, but what of those with patents who cannot or will not help or those who are just not very bright. The absolutism of the ministers words and the complete absence of substance to back them up are what bug me.

Yes, let’s just allow the kids to sit around and feel the numbers and then discuss with feedback….

Hardly what I was saying…

Some things just need to be learned

Yes. I’m not advocating NOT learning them, of course. The issue here isn’t with times tables, it’s with how learning is approached. The risk is that teaching becomes too target orientated to the detriment of true understanding and flexible learning to fit needs.

The minister is just stating what people took for granted just a few years ago. Amazing that it is even news. Part of the 8 plus when I was little. Even the guardian struggles to get cross in this instance….

We do need to make allowance for outliers, that’s a given but here we’re talking about the vast majority of pupils the ones without special needs.

Btw I’m not a particular advocate of excessive focus on academic targets in primary schools and would rather they focus on delivering well rounded confident children but I don’t think times tables and basic grammar is too much to ask.

I remember being told that the kids didn’t really learn properly when they did things by rote and repetition so times tables weren’t emphasised. I followed up by asking why all the kids were learning the songs twice a week for their Christmas plays from early October onward. Ah, that’s different…

And at 12 some are expected to be at this level

http://www.etoncollege.com/userfiles/files/KS%20Papers%202009%20-%20Maths%20A.pdf

And that is paper one!!!

http://www.etoncollege.com/userfiles/files/KS%20Papers%202009%20-%20English.pdf

Grammar, spelling(reading) and times tables starts at home

Indeed we do little else as a family in my home 😕

Whilst I can recite all the times tables I am less sure what use this is to me. I assume I could easily recite a list of 15 latin names without any comprehension of what I was reciting. There has to be a balance struck between mollys position of understanding and THM’s recital/repetition.

Hopefully you both forgive me for simplifying your views there.

Indeed we do little else as a family in my home

Based on your form on here, do you think that is wise?

What Mrs Wally and I did was strap the wee Wally into a car seat, tell her we were off to a fun place and after 10 mins pull out the 12×12 flash cards. Funnily enough she recently skipped home and with news she had got her Bronze maths badge, this of course resulted in a “Trolley Dash”. A game where she has a basket and 5 mins in Waitrose to put what ever she likes in……. so far, she has been kind and it’s all under a £10. £10 well spent in my books. Mrs Wally is regularly not so kind in Waitrose…

On the plus side they are better versed in sarcasm than you 😉

The minister is just stating what people took for granted just a few years ago

When was this when everyone could do this?
Not in the last 10 years for sure.