following from the “lost it with the guard” thread and numerous election threads, can some one pick holes in the arguments here please? paying particular attention to this bit please

Many train companies that run franchises in the UK are publicly owned, but by other European countries. Arriva is a wholly owned subsidiary of the German national rail company Deutsche Bahn, and runs the Arriva Trains Wales and Cross Country franchises. The French national rail operator SNCF has a majority stake in Keolis, which operates the Trans Pennine franchise in partnership with FirstGroup. Keolis is also a minority partner in the Govia rail operating company, which runs the Southern, Southeastern and London Midland services. The Dutch state railway company Nederlandse Spoorwegen owns Abellio, which has a 50% stake in Serco-Abellio, which runs the Merseyrail and Northern Rail franchises. Abellio also runs Scotrail. European governments make millions of pounds a year in dividends from their British operations.

and this bit

Since the cost of running the railways cannot be met by passenger fares alone, the government pays billions of pounds in subsidy to the train operating companies. However, much of this public subsidy doesn’t even reach the railways, but goes straight to shareholders. For example, between 1997 and 2012 on the West Coast Mainline, Virgin Trains paid out a total of £500 million in dividends, having received a direct subsidy of £2.5 billion.

i know there are fans of privatisation on here as well as opponents so tell me, am i right in reading that the british tax payer is propping up the french, dutch and german national railways, enabling them to offer 25% cheaper fares in their respective countries as opposed to here? sorry for the long post

If you really want to get wound up, go Google the train locos and rolling-stock companies since privatisation…

Starter for 10:

Porterbrook and their profits

Quite a few train operating and leasing companies in the uk alll making huge profits and in the case of the class 507 and 508, s nearly 40 years old and still trundling round the network , then there are the pacers, all old BR stock , now we have the prospect of the D train ex london underground throwaways, being refurbished and fitted witrh 4 ford transit engines, powering an electric drive, theyre faster than a pacer on accleration on paper but have a slower top speed according to tech details released so far, and theyre probably coming to us oop north, while london gets brand new japanese trains which nobody seems to know how much they cost .

Quite a few train operating and leasing companies in the uk alll making huge profits

and owned by the german, dutch and french national rail companies, no?

Bent as a nine bob note when you look into the details of it all and another national disgrace brushed under the carpet.

Imagine if G4S were involved as well, it would be beautiful wouldn’t it 😀

When you take into account the increase in passengers and inflation, the rail is costing less now than pre-privatisation.

I think you’d also be surprised by how small the margins are on train companies finances. Admittedly, the returns are small but the risk is next to zero.

I wonder if St Pancras station would have been upgraded like it has been under public ownership? I doubt any politician would divert pounds from the NHS for extra hospital beds or a few extra nurses to be spent on art for a railway station instead – it would be political suicide and no politician would ever make that decision. The railways would have continued their steady decline if it had remained under public ownership. We’d still have dilapidated stations that stink of piss, unreliable trains and a terrible, terrible service. Forget your romantic fantasy of what you thought BR was like – the reality was horrific and a national shambles – and you can absolutely blame the improvement in the rail network since privatisation on privatisation and however much we’ve had to subsidise it by is a fraction of what a nationalised service would have cost.

I wonder if St Pancras station would have been upgraded like it has been under public ownership?

Hmm. Didn’t end well though, still owned by the state after a bail-out.

Nationalisation[edit]

Following the Channel Tunnel Rail Link (Supplementary Provisions) Act 2008, the Department for Transport took direct ownership of LCR in June 2009 for a nominal price. This was possible due to the company’s dependence on £5.1bn of government-guaranteed debt, and the government’s special share in LCR giving it a wide range of control over the business.

The government stated it planned to sell off LCR’s assets, such as EUKL and HS1, as individual companies to recoup some of the large amounts of government money paid to LCR since 1998.[10]

The railways would have continued their steady decline if it had remained under public ownership. We’d still have dilapidated stations that stink of piss, unreliable trains and a terrible, terrible service. Forget your romantic fantasy of what you thought BR was like – the reality was horrific and a national shambles

But under BR, the HSTS, where introduced , the APT was built and tested and then the technology was improved by Fiat , and then sold and re marketed as Pendolinos and Voyagers, we had trhe Blue Pull man trains, many stations where rebuilt during the london Glasgow electrification along with , Merseyrail being designed and built, Chris Green created Network south east,east coast main line was rebuilt for electric trains and new trains and m4 stock built along with class 90 and 91 locos.And also lots of other stuff was done, that we still have now.

Since privaitisation a few companies have handed back the trainsets, and stations, Railtrack went bust , some major train accidents caused by lack of care,safety , tickets are not accepted on other train companies train routes, fares have gone up massively, 40 year old trains still bouncing round the network, ex london transport tube trains on Isle of White, and aged pacers and classs 507 and 508 still in use on merseyrail and down south, the new trans for east coast and g reat western lines are made in japan and being bought by us the tax payer.

So not very good is privatisation

am i right in reading that the british tax payer is propping up the french, dutch and german national railways, enabling them to offer 25% cheaper fares in their respective countries as opposed to here?

yes.

you can absolutely blame the improvement in the rail network since privatisation on privatisation and however much we’ve had to subsidise it by is a fraction of what a nationalised service would have cost

I’m not so sure about that – got any figures or evidence?

We’d still have dilapidated stations that stink of piss, unreliable trains and a terrible, terrible service.

are you somehow inferring that we don’t?

The truly weird thing about UK privatisation mania, is the number of times we end up with national services run by other countries’ state owned providers. Rail, power, so on.

Surely saying they received ‘direct subsidy’ of £2.5 billion 97-2012 is only half the data, as it does not reveal how much they paid the government in Licencing fees – what was the net cost to the public purse?

For instance, much was made of the East Coast main line making £230m profit in the fiscal year before re privatisation, but while privatised the franchise/licence fee paid to the government was bringing in more than that every year anyway