“Look at Rachel Atherton as an example of a woman who was given a fairly level playing field with the men from a young age, she’s Pretty handy in a bike and has put in plenty of times faster than a chunk of the men’s field over the years if I’m not mistaken.”

You’re completely mistaken. Rachel is an amazing DH MTBer but she’s significantly slower than all the junior men (short of big crashes or mechanicals) at every race, and even further behind the seniors.

Curtain shopping.

Is she up for it? Let her race.

Would she rather cut her wrists? Don’t let her race.

As I said, false. https://www.pinkbike.com/news/live-results-vallnord-dh-world-cup-2019.html
Loic bruni 4:11, racherl atherton 5:00 mins.
She is quicker than the 56th fastest man at Vallnord, and would not have placed 20th in the junior men.(there were only 20 junior men)
(She is amazing, and I admire her more than the blokes, I prefer watching the womens dh and talk about it all the time when its on, but its just a fact, they are not as good as the men)

She’s still awesome though!

And not a massive dick. Like McKinnon.

Fully, she is one my heroes.

I follow Graham Linehan (father ted writer) on twitter and he has been very vocal on this , sometimes possibly gone to far but he has calmed down a bit lately and seems to make his point better now . Anyway he retweeted a thread the other day where someone compared gay rights to trans rights, the gist was gay rights required nothing from straight people , all gay people were asking was  for the same rights as straight people  , marry the person they love etc etc . how can you argue with that ? Trans rights requires non trans people to go along with a truth they may not understand or believe and those people are normally women having trans women wanting to use women only spaces. That may be a toilet or something like a sporting competition .

There needs to be an honest and grown up discussion about it and an acknowledgement that when it comes to sport in order to maintain fairness there may well need to be a form of discrimination . The problem is when idiots like Piers Morgan get involved the conversation turns toxic  and i would imagine a trans kid who for competing at the Olympics is the last thing on their mind and are just trying to work things out in their head could feel like the world is against them .

Open and XX? Or else Open, XX and a variety of other categories in the style of the paralympics?

This. Job jobbed.

The recent women’s World marathon record makes her the 15th fastest athlete of any gender ever over that distance. Why, if she can achieve that now and it’s down to gender have women not permanently been in the top 20?

Not sure where this nugget of nonsense came from. It’s impressive, but wouldn’t make top 2000 mens fastest times over that distance.

I don’t follow the trans rights movement closely, does anyone know if there is unity of opinion behind McKinnon’s stance or do some others see her as counter-productive to the cause?

She is amazing, and I admire her more than the blokes, I prefer watching the womens dh and talk about it all the time when its on, but its just a fact, they are not as good as the men

I’d argue that it isn’t about being “good”, it’s that physiologically, they don’t have the power to carry the speed, I’m pretty sure if it were possible to stick Rachel Atherton’s brain and skills into the 56th quickest male DH riders body, he’d go a damn sight quicker!

In all sports, it’s not about being “good” it’s about the physical “grrr” that years of naturally produced testosterone doping will give you.

https://www.runnersworld.com/races-places/a20823734/these-are-the-worlds-fastest-marathoners-and-marathon-courses/

13 minutes slower.

She is as “good”. She’s not as fast. There are other measures of good. Adjusting for gender, she may well be the best. That’s the point of a covariate. Gender is one such covariate And an important one in many disciplines. But If you take her magnitude or supremacy over others in her class, she could be the best.

For the record, I wouldn’t be seen dead on a course she rides. Actually dead is probably the right adjective. I probably would be if I rode one!

“She is as “good”. She’s not as fast.”

I think this is a great point – her save last year off the big rock drop at Mont Sainte Anne was miraculous!

But when winning or losing is all about a time, then you can’t ignore the genetic advantage conferred by being male, or to a lesser degree intersex, or a historical male who has transitioned to female. I’m an awful non-competing powerlifter (I enjoy the challenge and it’s stopping me from feeling feeble as I get older) and the difference between men and women is vast, even in the non-tested (ie using PEDs) federations.

I don’t know of how the powerlifting feds (of which there are literally hundreds) deal with transgender issues, I’ve yet to hear of anyone competing post-transition. I have come across one very interesting character who seems a great force for all things good in this complex world, called Janae Marie Kroc, who’s a gender-fluid lifter and was a world record holder when she was competing as a man.

https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2019/05/08/powerlifter-mary-gregory-world-records-disqualified-trans/

WTF has happened to common sense and the reality of genetics and chromosomes. The fact is that genuine dedicated female athletes are getting screwed over by everybody involved in the sport they love, it takes a level of arrogance only found in males to compete against women and not feel ashamed, average male athletes who can’t get in the top 50 can trans into a record breaker, if half the field becomes trans what would be the point of a genuine female taking part. So yet again another trans is dominating, what a surprise. A female athlete would have to take every PED to stand a chance, the way its going every gold medal will have an adams apple above it.

Open and XX? Or else Open, XX and a variety of other categories in the style of the paralympics?

This. Job jobbed.

46XX women may have outwardly male characteristics, like Dutch Olympian Foekje Dillema (who may have been a generic mosaic of both 46XX and 46XY cells)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foekje_Dillema

A female athlete would have to take every PED to stand a chance

Thing is, it’s not just drugs/number matching. There’s the brain wiring too. By nature men are greater risk-takers so for example, in a road race a man’s brain may decide to lunge for an opening in the sprint that a woman may deem to risky

It would be an interesting study through Cathrovision to look at a risky DH section and assess the lines favoured by men vs women

https://fairplayforwomen.com/mckinnon/

Trigger warning – contains reference to black pudding.

Womens marathon world record time is 2:14:04.

This is a link to show that the 2:14:04 is not the 15th fastest of all time. Page 10 shows the 1000th fastest time, go to page 20 and obviously 2000 fastest time. All inside 2:14. Which isn’t to demean the ladies world record, but just wanted to show that in terms of male/female sporting comparisons, its not the 15th fastest of all time.

https://www.iaaf.org/records/all-time-toplists/road-running/marathon/outdoor/men/senior?page=10

it takes a level of arrogance only found in males to compete against women and not feel ashamed

This is an excellent point.

I’m sure a lot of men and women are reading about this and thinking (adopts Seinfeld voice): “Really?”

It would be an interesting study through Cathrovision to look at a risky DH section and assess the lines favoured by men vs women

Big physical component to this as well as the mental one which you rightly point out though.

Also, talent pool is much bigger in men’s field and risk arguably brings greater reward.

This book is well worth a read for those interested in the genetics, biology, and nature v nurture debates.

In my opinion, regardless of current testosterone levels, a transgender athlete can never compete fairly as a female as there’s just too much gained from when they were male.

Why does McKinnon defend her position so aggressively? Possibly she has been enabled by others in the field to convince her she is a woman, she also behaves aggressively in a very masculine way..

46XX women may have outwardly male characteristics, like Dutch Olympian Foekje Dillema (who may have been a generic mosaic of both 46XX and 46XY cells)
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foekje_Dillema

From your link:

After her death a forensic test on body cells obtained from her clothing showed signs of a Y-chromosome in her DNA. She might have been a genetic mosaic, having cells with either 46,XX (female) or 46,XY (male) chromosomes,

But who cares, if she’s XX she competes in the XX category. No ambiguity there, that’s be beauty of taking gender out of it and letting chromosomal makeup be the sole arbiter.

it takes a level of arrogance only found in males to compete against women and not feel ashamed

Absolutely this.

Only 22 runners in the men’s race finished faster than Kosgei, whose time would have been a men’s world record in 1964.

Taken from here

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/50035304

So apologies, 15th is misremembered from when I initially read it but certainly not in the order of x100.

Based on the above posts I completely misread it, as 22 in the men’s race vs 22 in the same day’s

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/50035304

So apologies, 15th is misremembered from when I initially read it but certainly not in the order of x100.

She was using the Nike Vaporfly which are believed to improve running economy by 4%, so the comment about it beating the men’s 1964 record isn’t an accurate comparison.

Why does McKinnon defend her position so aggressively?

Because she’s a bully masquerading as a victim.

She’s playing both poacher and gamekeeper simultaneously and because she’s playing the trans card from both sides, she’s untouchable. She has set this up in such a way as she cannot be criticized.

It’s quite clever and manipulative.

Wiki – Victim Playing

It’s simple, take gender out of it because that’s fluid.

Replace gender classification with two categories, one for people with XX chromosomes, one for everyone else.

or some other catagorisation, forget gender.

Would allow women to compete meaningfully with men of the same same catagorisaton.

Might then make for better, and more watcheable, competition as matches would be closer and therefore more exciting to watch, and therefore closer the ‘pay gap’

Would dramatically reduce Serena Williams earning capacity though as she would be in one of the lower categories !

Because she’s a bully masquerading as a victim.

She also writes her own rules a she has done her ‘PHD’ in this area, essentially on herself. Mind you its sociology so it hardly counts.

I think it would be interesting to hear what the LGBTQ+ community (particularly F–>M trans people) think of all of this. I haven’t heard such commentary on this.

She is also an arsehole. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_McKinnon

In August 2019, in relation to the death of American billionaire David Koch, McKinnon tweeted that “it’s okay to be happy, even celebrate, when bad people die”.[22] A respondent, believed to be alluding to the terminal illness of Magdalen Berns (a feminist commentator on YouTube who has been characterised as transphobic),[23] asked if McKinnon “thought it was OK to celebrate the death of a young person suffering from an incurable brain tumor” (quoting the account of the Charleston The Post and Courier). McKinnon replied: “if they’re a trash human actively trying to harm marginalized people because of who they are? I think it’s justified”. The exchange provoked a petition seeking McKinnon’s public apology.[8][24][25]

Basically if your beliefs don’t align with hers then she is happy if you die. This is not an equality moral stance I recognize, and will lead to further deaths. Killing is wrong, end of. I think she is wrong, and fits the 1980’s playground definition of ‘mental’.

In fact what she is doing is ‘othering’ those who don’t agree with her. Which is exactly how Trans people are marginalized.

She is also an arsehole

See also celebrating the recent death of Magdalen Berns.

Yea that’s in the thing I linked too. Nasty person.

I’m only halfway through this article but it seems well worth reading:

Shades of Gray: Sex, Gender, and Fairness in Sport

Does she have to take any hormone drugs to be enable to compete?

Ban these & solve some arguments.

Even has the audacity to call Dawn Orwick a sore loser, adding insult to injury just shows what a piece of shit she? is, Dawn earned her stripes, she didn’t steal them, can anyone blame her for not embracing a cheating scumbag who feels proud of shooting fish in a barrel achievements.

TBH, I’m not sure that the 35-39 Masters category podium would normally get this kind of attention, and perhaps it’s best if it reverts to this state and she disappears back into obscurity and mediocrity.

I have a certain amount of sympathy for the whole Trans thing – I mean i get it, life is potentially quite shitty for people who genuinely feel they were born the wrong gender and want to identify as a different one.

But is this fair for anyone? This person is biologically 100% male, she absolutely has the right to change her name to Rachel and identify as female, but competing in an athletic contest with other competitors who were born 100% female strikes me as just plainly wrong.

She is also an arsehole

That’s putting it mildly!

In the last week McKinnon has:

Accused the woman she beat of ‘unsportsmanlike’ behaviour and reported her to the authorities.

Accused another female cyclist (interviewed by the BBC) of transphobia and reported her.

Celebrated the death of journalist of Deborah Orr.

I’m saying no more on this thread, other than to provide a link to this article on T-Nation.

It’s a comprehensive take on the situation, covering many sports, and includes a break down of the various rules and regulations.

Trans Athletes: The Death Of Women’s Sports Fairness Gone Too Far