There has certainly been a bit of a sea-change on this (mostly male) forum since the last time this topic was discussed too.

Yes remember the last time when hetero men on here who said they wouldn’t like the idea of having sex with another man (albeit one who has had hormones and surgery to look like a woman), were roundly condemned and labelled something unpleasant.

Yes remember the last time when hetero men on here who said they wouldn’t like the idea of having sex with another man (albeit one who has had hormones and surgery to look like a woman), were roundly condemned and labelled something unpleasant.

That’s less about transphobia and more to do with an individual’s sexual preferences surely? At least that’s consensual – if an individual (male or female or “other”) and a trans person want to have sex then what two consenting adults get up to in private is their business alone.

The idea of a sports governing body saying to a female team, “we accept men who identify as women in the sport and that means spectators, fans and all other players need to accept them on the field and you need to accept them in your showers” is rather different and labelling anyone who is uncomfortable with that as “transphobic” is not at all helpful.

I’m sure the ECB are looking forward to the day Maxine is selected for the national team.

I believe most people are fairly reasonable about their attitudes to gender and sport. Where there is apparently no benefit (shooting for example) it’s a flat playing field and men will regularly be beaten by women. Where efforts of endurance are involved, it seems clear that there are benefits of having passed through puberty.

Being 6’4” might convey a few advantages for a bowler, and taking a third of the team’s wickets in a season might seem to back that up. The percentage of females of that height is very small. And for the same height they will have proportionately less muscle.

That’s less about transphobia and more to do with an individual’s sexual preferences surely?

If you’d been following the debate at all you’d realise that sensible notion has already been deemed transphobic by the shouty trans folk. There is now a new LGB Alliance group trying to stand up for folk to have the right to a sexual preference. Some of the debate is particularly poisonous and threats of violence towards Women’s Rights groups are becoming increasingly common.

https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/uci-considers-stricter-hormone-requirements-for-transgender-female-athletes/

Some of the debate is particularly poisonous and threats of violence towards Women’s Rights groups are becoming increasingly common.

Further bolstering the idea that some clever surgery and hormones do not take the man out of the woman they believe they have been transformed into. I don’t remember the feminists and lesbians being awful to people they disagreed with in the 70/80’s. There is a correlation here.

https://www.pinkbike.com/news/uci-to-consider-lowering-female-transgender-athletes-testosterone-threshold.html

Some well worded comments from the UCI there.

Earlier this month, experts from relevant disciplinary fields, representatives of the International Paralympic Committee, the International Tennis Federation, World Rowing, the International Golf Federation, and the International Association of Athletics Federations, and cis and trans athlete representatives had an initial meeting. After a day of presentations and discussions, the IIAF group agreed on the following:

• They remain committed to fair and equal opportunity for female athletes
• The inclusion of trans women within the female category should be promoted with meaningful eligibility standards, provided it does not create intolerable unfairness
• Rules intended to accommodate trans athletes should be sports-specific and designed by the relevant international federation.
• Testosterone is the primary known driver of the performance gap between males and females and serum Testosterone is regarded as an acceptable proxy to distinguish male from female athletes.
• If a federation decides to use serum Testosterone for this purpose, it should adopt a fixed threshold at or below 5nmol/L for eligibility for the female category.
• More research is needed on this issue and should be encouraged by sports federations.

The full report of the initial meeting can be found here.

Seems to ignore the elephant in the room – lived experience as the other gender. Especially male to female trans. I wonder how much is known about if puberty as a man confers benefits that reducing testosterone levels later will not reverse?

I wonder how much is known about if puberty as a man confers benefits that reducing testosterone levels later will not reverse?

Lots. The benefits conferred by male puberty are Irreversible.

Look up Hannah Mouncey, Australian handball player, and imagine your daughter going up against him/her. You’d be a nervous wreck and quite probably to campaigning that trans athletes are not allowed in the women’s game.

Lots. The benefits conferred by male puberty are Irreversible.

well this is what I was implying, but I don’t know the research, however the examples of McKinnon, the cricketer and that handball player are a bit damning (especially the handball player, very much a bloke).
How long will it be before xx women break away and start an xx league in various sports? Then they will sue to get the title ‘Woman’ back from the trans movement.

The UCI and the IOC have scientists who have constantly been adjusting the rules of a living document that determines whether or not someone can compete in a certain category.

This person has jumped through every hoop required. That is the end of it.

So until you are a person advising that council your opinion counts for exactly the square root of **** all.

your opinion counts for exactly the square root of **** all.

As has always been the case in most things. So what?

Jesus christ that Australian handball player looks a monster! 6ft 2 and 100kg! She’d hurt men let alone women!

Seems to ignore the elephant in the room – lived experience as the other gender.

That is the real problem area. Nobody wants to go too far too quickly until there is a definite feeling that everyone on the governing bodies across all sports is in agreement. And then of course it has to get through human rights groups.

The problem with discussions around this is that any solution is lose / lose.

Let those who are intersex or havechanged sex compete in womens sport its unfair on the rest, deny them the right to compete its unfair on them especially those like Semanya

I really really cannot see any fair solution

Greater good of the greater number?

Hmmmmmmmmm

If one person can do it all can do it? ( IIRC thats another tenet of utilitarianism)

Let those who are intersex or havechanged sex compete in womens sport its unfair on the rest, deny them the right to compete its unfair on them especially those like Semanya

You’re conflating intersex people with folk who change their gender (you can’t change sex).  The solution may not apply to both groups. Transexual athletes are free to compete in the relevant category according to their sex.

Good point

Please don’t conflate the Semenya situation with someone who has decided they’d like to be a woman now. Oh, but still play men’s cricket when they feel like it. Or someone who decides to race against women having lived through, and gained all the advantages of, male puberty.

They are wholly different situations.

Surely the solution is to poll the people who this actually affects – their fellow competitors.

fellow competitors

And if they say no, they’re screamed at for being transphobic.

Haven’t some XX competirors pulled out of comps with xy m>f competitor’s? That gives some idea of how the other competitors feel.

I guess you could do anonymous poll?

Please don’t conflate the Semenya situation with someone who has decided they’d like to be a woman now.

Why not? The argument that has been made many times on this thread is that transgender female athletes have XY chromosomes and went through puberty giving them a huge advantage over athletes with XX chromosomes.

Unless you’re saying that transgender is somehow all pretend whereas being intersex is a real thing and therefore an exception should be made?

They have a choice, Semenya does not.

They have a choice, Semenya does not.

Because being transgender isn’t a real thing?

Its two different but related issues. CFH and scotroutes are right in that.

Its two different but related issues.

Many on here have been saying that the reason transgender athletes have an advantage is because they have XY chromosomes and went through puberty.

If you reduce it to that then the cases are pretty much identical.

The argument that is being made it that Semenya didn’t have a choice whereas transgender athletes do. That clearly implies that transgender is not a real thing.

No it doesn’t. It implies that they have a choice about whether to transition or not. They can consider whether the costss/benefits of doing so are worth it. Sometimes people do it & regret it, or start the process and change their minds. This isn’t difficult to understand

This isn’t difficult to understand

Really, you can easily imagine what it would be like to be transgender? Because I can’t. And I’m told I’m very good at understanding other people’s point of view and at seeing things from their perspective.

Despite that I really have no idea what the feeling of being born in the wrong body must be like.

Are you sure you think it’s not difficult for you to understand because, actually, you have no idea what you’re talking about?

One thing I have learned from this debate adn from talking with Racheal (allthegear) who was on here before being bullied off the forum is that I need to chose my words carefully and that I do not know enough to have a strong opinion.

Its a very complex subject

Some interesting discussion here
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/may/01/losing-caster-semenya-decision-wrong-women-testosterone-iaaf

I’ll say it, your ‘real sex’ is the sex you were born with, its like me saying I have always felt like a 6ft 10 black man mountain stuck in a 5ft 7 wimpy body, I want surgery and recognition as such. It is denying reality. Just because surgery and hormones can change some of the outward signals, they are still xx or xy. It is modern medicine gone crazy.
If you have gender dysphoria then you do not confirm to societies expectations of what you should wear and how you behave, this I admire. But it does not mean you are a female in a mans body. You are just an intelligent adult who realizes that anyone should be allowed to wear a skirt, makeup and have a nice hairdo regardless of tackle. Anyone can stay at home and look after the kids and cook and clean if that suits them, anyone can have a full career if that’s what they want.
Anyone can have their tackle added/taken away and take hormones if they like. consenting adults can have sex with whoever they want.
Who are we to deny people the right to choose any of these things?
But they are still the sex they were born with, its just a biological fact.

and that I do not know enough to have a strong opinion.

Its a very complex subject

Pretty much how I feel. I’m surprised that so many seem confident enough to have very strong opinions one way or the other.

I’ll say it, your ‘real sex’ is the sex you were born with

I actually think that’s a valid view point. I think one place to start with resolving this could be to separate Sex and Gender. I think that people should accept their ‘Sex’ and how that might limit them but at the same time society as a whole should respect people’s gender. Exactly how that works and where exactly the compromises should be made is an incredibly difficult proposition.

But where does that leave Semenya. What is her ‘real sex’?

5plus8

please be careful with your language and sentiments – that could be seen as somewhat hurtful. Have a read of this perhaps? Racheal is the only transperson I have known at all and she felt forced off the forum by similar comments.

https://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/it-hurts-it-really-bloody-hurts/

Society respecting peoples gender is easy. Treat everyone with respect whether they are wearing a dress or not. Gender should be irrelevant.