Anyone upgraded their Charger 2.1 damper with the PUSH HC97 compression damper upgrade? If so, how have you found it?

I’ve not been on a Rockshox forks since the horrors of the first Charger dampers around 2016, I absolutely hated that fork! Fox GRIP2 dampers have been a bit of a revelation for me, but they’re still not perfect I have found, they still benefit from a custom setup and a lighter oil. But anyway…

Does the HC97 turn the Charger 2.1 in the latest Lyriks and Zebs into a worthy contender?

Current Lyric and Zeb Ultimate are already absolutely brilliant.

Current Lyric and Zeb Ultimate are already absolutely brilliant.

People said that about the Lyrik when it came out in 2016 too… It was turd!

I am aware that things have moved on though…

Managed to pick up a really cheap Zeb Ultimate, happy to spend a few quid tuning it as necessary. Couldn’t get hold of a Fox 38 for love nor money, so will give this a go, but keen to hear from those who have fitted the PUSH HC97 compression damper to see if it has made much difference.

What about for the Zeb select??
Would this work or is it best just doing the 2.1 damper upgrade

What about for the Zeb select??

Only works on the Select+… Needs to be a Charger 2 or 2.1 Damper, doesn’t work with the cheaper RC damper.

The hyperbole around new forks and minor improvements is now so bad its impossible to tell without riding them for oneself.

In recent history, I bought a Pike Ultimate RC2 – apparently a brilliant fork now, and it didn’t really feel any better than my previous 2016 Pike. I was very disappointed and very shortly afterwards replaced it with a Fox 36 that I’m splendidly happy with.

At the same time, a friend of mine tried to improve his Pike ultimate RC2 with an HC97, and although he says its better than it was, he’s still not happy with the fork.

The hyperbole around new forks and minor improvements is now so bad its impossible to tell without riding them for oneself.

As bad as the marketing around Golf clubs 20yrs ago or so… Every year a new driver would hit it 20yds further than the one before. But yet nobody was hitting 500yd drives 10yrs later! 🤷🏻‍♂️

At the same time, a friend of mine tried to improve his Pike ultimate RC2 with an HC97, and although he says its better than it was, he’s still not happy with the fork.

OK cheers. This is my worry too. I think the biggest part of Rockshox’s problems come down to their air springs, they focus on such large negative chambers for off the top sensitivity at the expense of making the thing stable in the mid stroke! Planning to solve that straight away with a Diaz Runt anyway…

I found I was constantly chasing high-speed composure with all of my RS forks (2016 Lyrik and 2016 pike) the lyrik was always better out of the two, but I never got to the point where I was content. A FAST damper helped a bit, going back to a B1 air spring helped a bit. Low friction dirt wipers helped more than I think it should have. The RC2 Pike I bought earlier this year barely felt any different.

Contrastingly a decent 36 fell in my lap in early 2020 and I was content in two bracketing rides.

Do you have a UK source for the runt or are you bringing it over?

Do you have a UK source for the runt or are you bringing it over?

Interested in the answer here too.

Managed to pick up a really cheap Zeb Ultimate

New or previously cherished?

https://www.chickadeehill.de

The AWK air spring is a good option and shipping should be less than a runt.

If it’s the airspring side you’re most worried about, it might be worth looking at the Vorsprung Secus. It got a good review on Pinkbike when tested on a Zeb. pinkbike.com/news/review-vorsprung-secus-air-spring-upgrade
Or, go the whole hog with a coil spring.

I decided to buy European, and when I started to investigate the AWK I found none of the two suppliers are prepared to ship to UK. Good old Brexit. This means the US based Runt is the only option unless you have a friend in Ireland, France etc.

Not tried the hc97 upgrade, but have both a luftkappe and a secus in zeb ultimates on a couple of bikes, really makes them drastically better, I’ve not run into issues on the dampers in regards to performance.

People said that about the Lyrik when it came out in 2016 too… It was turd!

I think it was more the air spring.

If there’s room for improvement in the Zeb Ultimate (I own one), I suspect that’s also on the spring side.

But focusing on the damper anyway, it might be worth waiting to see if RS update the Charger at some point soon-ish (though I dunno how that would compare price-wise to the Push thingy).

Anyway – the Zeb Ultimate is a very good fork, if you keep it serviced. It won’t feel anything like a 2016 Lyrik.

Push actually did a video and said half the damping force actually comes from the spring anyway, so just a lowers service makes the “damping” better.

I’d agree the spring rate is more important. I’ve got a Zeb and it does seem quite divey. I suspect the fix is a larger negative air spring, more PSI, and less tokens. Might try a luftkappe at some point.

I think it was more the air spring.

Not gonna disagree… However, RS have always overdamped their forks too from the factory…

If there’s room for improvement in the Zeb Ultimate (I own one), I suspect that’s also on the spring side.

I had assumed the same… Not that the damper will be perfect, but that the biggest issue will be the HUGE airspring with something like a 3 or 4 to 1 compression ratio even with no volume spacers in potentially.

Hence already ordered a Runt.

But focusing on the damper anyway, it might be worth waiting to see if RS update the Charger at some point soon-ish (though I dunno how that would compare price-wise to the Push thingy).

For $20 I ordered the Diaz charger 2.1 damper shims at the same time, and will rebuild the damper to their specs first before shelling out on an HC97 I think. Anthony @ Diaz seems to understand better than most I’ve heard how the stock tunes in most dampers are attempting to make up for a poor air spring it seems.

I’d agree the spring rate is more important. I’ve got a Zeb and it does seem quite divey. I suspect the fix is a larger negative air spring, more PSI, and less tokens. Might try a luftkappe at some point.

Don’t waste your money with a Luftkappe or a Secus or anything like that. It is NOT the fix… It’s a sticking plaster at best. The real issue with modern air sprung forks isn’t too small a negative air chamber, it’s too small a positive air chamber! When you’ve got 160-190mm of travel in a single crown fork, the compression ratio even if you’ve made the positive air chamber as large as you possibly can, is still far too high. Of note, Intend have done something about this with their Bandit fork, giving the air spring side of the fork a longer leg and dual crown to enlarge the air volumes (both +ve and -ve) to reduce the compression ratio and reduce the compression ratio as such. I spent some time chatting to Raphaela Richter (Intend supported EWS racer) @ EWS Innerleithen, she said how the Bandit is much better than what she was riding before but still isn’t perfect for her lightweight stature, and she still can’t get the last 5-10% of travel readily unless she sets the fork up too soft off the top so that it is too divey. But it is still a lot better than what she was riding before in this respect.

The Runt is different, primarily because it doesn’t aim to blame the size of the -ve chamber for the forks issues, but to fix the issues with the +ve. What you have is effectively a dynamic reduction in volume spacers as the fork cycles through its travel. At max travel, the fork effectively has say 5 or 6 volume reduction spacers, and the fork is incredibly supple off the top with a low pressure in the forks initial chamber. By the time the chamber pressures equalise (somewhere around 30% or so into the fork travel, depending on pressure ratios), the piston separating the two chambers will start to move too, and as it does so, the effective number of volume spacers decreases through the remainder of the fork travel, until by the end of the stroke you effectively have no volume spacers. In doing so, it gives the fork a more linear feel (“coil like” if you will), albeit that playing with the ratios between the two +ve chambers allows you to still play with a level of end stroke ramp up.

Do you have a UK source for the runt or are you bringing it over?

You have to go direct. Anthony @ Diaz isn’t interested in being anything bigger than a small engineering and custom suspension tuning shop in Durango sadly. I offered to either put some money in and act as a UK agent myself or find a suitable UK distributor for him 2 years ago when I bought my Runt for my Fox 36’s, he wasn’t interested. Shame, but I can also respect where he’s coming from. He’s got a business that is fully under his control this way. Either way, working in the trade I never pay anywhere near full whack for anything, and am incredibly work hardened to the marketing BS from all the usual suspects… Trust me when I say that the Runt is a game changer if you’ve got a fork that it will fit! OK, so Ohlins have had dual +ve chambers for a while, EXT have it on the ERA fork too and Marzocchi briefly experimented with them years ago too, it’s not new tech. But if you’ve got a fork from Rox or Rockshox, which let’s face it is about 99% of us that ride MTB, then we’ve been stuck playing with volume spacers for years now to no avail, and been led to believe that we need ever increasing -ve volume chamber sizes in order to solve the problem of an unsupportive mid stroke and too much end stroke ramp up! The Runt allows you to reduce the level of compression damping, making the fork a lot more supple, but without allowing the fork to become a divey mess.

I’ve paid full price for Runts, and international shipping, and customs charges… Even then, they’re still well worth it!

I decided to buy European, and when I started to investigate the AWK I found none of the two suppliers are prepared to ship to UK. Good old Brexit. This means the US based Runt is the only option unless you have a friend in Ireland, France etc.

I looked into the AWK a while ago. Firstly, the prominent valves on top of the unit do leave a bit to be desired. They look gawky, but on some frames, could also cause potential clearance issues with the down tube. And then you have the Brexit issue… 🤦🏻

Push actually did a video and said half the damping force actually comes from the spring anyway, so just a lowers service makes the “damping” better.

Knowing that at 95kg ready to ride, that I still need the compression damping wound fully off on most stock forks or face significant arm pump, I find this somewhat dubious. I am more than aware of the difference keeping on top of lower leg maintenance and using good quality oils makes (take note Rockshox, on both counts!!!) makes, but I fail to see how a well maintained fork that half of the damping force comes from friction in the air spring for a 95kg rider on a 25kg ebike!!! Prove to me I’m wrong… 🤷🏻‍♂️

its pretty sad that all these forks need a few hundred spent on them for air spring or damper upgrades. Buy a mezzer and you’ll have the air spring and damping sorted from the factory.

🤦🏼‍♀️

Scienceofficer
Free Member

In recent history, I bought a Pike Ultimate RC2 – apparently a brilliant fork now, and it didn’t really feel any better than my previous 2016 Pike. I was very disappointed and very shortly afterwards replaced it with a Fox 36 that I’m splendidly happy with.

Yep, this. I’m back on a Pike in the hardtail and man it is unimpressive. I’ve tweaked it a bit and that’s raised it to “good enough I guess”, don’t really want to spend more money on it. But other than the weight I just think it’s a worse fork in every way than my ancient lyrik rc2 (old boxxer-ey version). And that fork was completely stock. My upgraded 36s absolutely bury the Pike, it’s pretty much impossible to ride one then the other and not think “this is shit”

I’ve burnished the bushing on several 35mm Rockshox recently. Some needed a little fettle and some needed a lot of work. Perhaps some of what people are seeing could be down to bushing clearance, or lack of.

Even after sorting the bushings on my Lyric, it’s much better but leaves a little to be desired. There are suggestions that it’s the mid valve that is the choke point. However, there is also suggestion that the air spring is responsible for 50% of the forks friction.

Leaves me wondering whether to start with the damper or the spring.

There are suggestions that it’s the mid valve that is the choke point

HC97 doesn’t affect the charger midvalve. Its still there causing harshness then lack of support lol HC97 adds a lot of damping with a narrow range of adjustment (poppet valves). Unless you are big and hit the trails very hard I wouldn’t bother with the HC97.

True, the PUSH unit does nothing for midstroke. That’s why I’m torn between the Avalanche hybrid and the Shockcraft unharsh upgrade.

@onzadog

I’ve burnished the bushing on several 35mm Rockshox recently

How did you do this? do you have the tool like the susp servicing companies would use?

Yeah, decided to pull the trigger on the one from Oliver at Blue Liquid Labs. Only got the mandrels for 34 and 35 forks though.

New or previously cherished?

Sorry Dom, forgot to answer this one…

VERY lightly used previously… Done a few rides at most by the looks of them. Bagged a bit of an ebay bargain 👍🏻

True, the PUSH unit does nothing for midstroke. That’s why I’m torn between the Avalanche hybrid and the Shockcraft unharsh upgrade.

Noted… Probably won’t bother with it then. Just looked up the Shockcraft unharsh mod, wasn’t aware of this… I have ordered the Charger 2.1 shim kit from Diaz at the same time as my Runt, details here…

DSD Charger 2.1 Shim Kit

So the idea looks like more larger, but thinner shims, and a lighter spring controlling the mid-valve. Somebody who understands damper shims better than I do will be able to tell me how this will behave in comparison with stock, but I believe the idea is it will remove the stock RS compression harshness to a degree. I’ve also seen people on YouTube drilling the flow ports in the stock Charger compression damper for slightly increased flow rates, in a similar vein to the original “Black Box” mod that we used to do to the original Cherry Red Boxxers’ damper piston back in the day… Allows you to run a slightly thicker oil then and actually still be able to use the clickers, rather than leave everything set on minimum all the time!

its pretty sad that all these forks need a few hundred spent on them for air spring or damper upgrades.

Agreed… But it’s always been the way! 🤷🏻‍♂️

Buy a mezzer and you’ll have the air spring and damping sorted from the factory.

Having tried to get hold of one here in the UK numerous times, I gave it up as a bad job. Hotlines may as well not bother quite frankly, they never have them, they don’t seem to want to get them in either, and I have heard of more than a couple of reliability woes (same old Manitou!) from those who have managed to get hold of one somehow… My colleague in Germany offered to get one for me (seemingly Manitou are much better supported for sales and after sales in the EU), he is running one on one of his bikes and rates it. I’d rather not take my chances frankly, which is a shame, cos it does look good!

Having tried to get hold of one here in the UK numerous times, I gave it up as a bad job.

bought mine from starbike – less issues than fox or RS. was a small batch right at the start that had an issue and that has all be sorted. You can get the stuff warrantied in the UK.

these threads make for interesting reading

https://www.mtbr.com/threads/rockshox-pike-charger-2-upgrade-worth-it.1085362/

https://www.mtbr.com/threads/charger-2-damper-modifications.1094321/

After two failed attempts with the Mezzer (one from Starbike pre Brexit and the other in the UK) I agree with Mboy. I ended up with a Lyric from Germany. Decided I’d rather have a compromised fork that could be fettled rather than one which was great on paper but had known issues at that time with zero support in the UK.

However, it’s a digression as the OP is about products from Rockshox and Push, not Manitou.

However, it’s a digression as the OP is about products from Rockshox and Push, not Manitou.

Debate around the subject is always good too. Often brings up things you may not otherwise have known about, I don’t feel like it was purposefully detracting as such.

these threads make for interesting reading

Starting reading, tried to ignore the obvious dick measuring contests then they started going into tech that I’m not afraid to admit is way beyond my understanding… I know the basics of how a damper works, I know what I want it to feel like, but I bowed out of Mechanical Engineering @ uni the moment we got into fluid dynamics as it just wasn’t for me…

Interesting to see so many voices all saying the same thing about the Charger 2.1 though considering how much praise it gets by the MTB press! 🤷🏻‍♂️

obvious dick measuring contests

reminds me of another forum lol

not really surprising about the dampers and air springs. You wouldn’t have all these aftermarket changes if the the forks were great to start with.