Public vs Private (leave the trolling at the door)

It takes special management to pay their top performers more than them (although this may be more extreme than you are suggestion).

That’s weird. It wouldn’t occur to me that manager should earn more than the people they manage.

teamhurtmore….i think the public would go for it and the majority of NHS staff too….there would of course be wailing from the unions and other professional bodies like the Nursing and Midwifery Council who would see it as some kind of career castration for their members….ludicrously i was lectured earlier this year by a Consultant Nurse who was in his early 30s….obviously being a Consultant Nurse he no longer gets his hands dirty in a front line role, he issues clinical directions to the nurses under him and lectures at the local Uni (for more money obviously)….the NHS has paid for the Degrees, Masters etc that have paved the way for him to become a consultant in his field….the NHS will also now be stuck with his inflated salary for the next 30 years and the pension provision afterwards, really what was the point in taking a bright young thing like him away from patients?

As Swiss01 suggested, his role should be manned by somebody with 20-30 years experience who is looking to step back from frontline work and willing to take the appropriate pay cut….we have things very upside down in the NHS!

Makes a lot of sense – too many industries “promote’ performers into managers too quickly and without understanding that the requirements for the roles can be very different!!

5th – no smiley, so I guess thats a straight point?

The Police pension is Rediculous ..

From Police Pension doc

Most policemen will be able to retire on two-thirds of their salary after 30 years, so if a policeman was earning a typical £34,000 he might retire on a pension of more than £22,000.

.So for illustrative purposes only if your APP after 30 years service was £36,000. Your entitlement without commutation would be £36,000 x 40/60 or £24,000 p.a

You can commute a maximum of a quarter of your pension as a lump sum. So if you chose to commute the figures would be £24,000 / 4= £6000 which then has to be multiplied by your age factor, which for a male under 51 is 15. So your lump sum would be £6000x 15 or £90,000.

So if a PC joins at 20 and had earned £36000 top level PC wage since he joined , which he can’t but its an example at 11pc he would have paid £3960 per year (330 per month) £3960 * 30 years is £118,800…

He rtires at 50, Say he lives to 75 that’s 25 years at £22,000 = £550,000 plus the lump sum above , total value is £640,000 and that’s just a PC who has to die at 75 for it not to cost even more

So next time we hear aye “but do ya know how much we pay in” say yes we do and ask how do you invest 118,000 “absolute max” and get 640,000 back..where does that come from add, sick pay, maybe 10 days off a year at £ 140 per day = £1400 per year @ 30 years = another £42,000

Add to the fact that his pension will be based on 2/3 rds of the highest salary from his last three years service, so he could become a sergent late on get paid £45,000 and get 2/3rds of that instead.

To me that return is crazy… not saying a Pc should not have a good pension as it an important Job, but come on it should be related to what you pay in surley
That example gives the whole contributions back within 2 years of retirement…
I Think teachers are the same..

13 percent goes into mine and paid for a lot longer and i get no where near that back

ok one quick bit – nice ride thanks

Everyone has transferable skills – they may be plenty they may be limited.
Everyone has specialist skills again they may be plenty but they tend to be job/industry specific.
So TJ has worked for say 25 years as a nurse- he will have many many specialist skills that relate only to that job/healthcare.
He will have transferable skills [ though he hides them well on here] such as communication, IT team work, management etc.
If you think these alone will get him a job in a totally different job then you are slightly deluded. I work in this area.
You seem to think if he did a one year course he would get a job as say a brickie because he has his cards. However he would have no building site experience, never have worked as a brickie in his life. Applying for the job will be people with 10 + years experience of site work and TJ with a college certificate – he may just be applying for a job he has never done but thinks he can transfer skills to that job [ say housing support officer?]. Again he is against people who are qualified in that area and have experience as well.
Who gets the job? You are recruiting who do you want MR transferable skills or the one who has doen the job for the last 10 years.
Of course you can change career but to attempt to do it in a recession where every industry has a pool of highly experienced recently made redundant individuals willing to work for much less than they were on in their last job using only your transferable skills and willingness to learn ….good luck
Why do yu think so many young people dont have work – no experience mainly. This is who companies stop recruiting as they can recruit experienced staff willing to work for the same wage as a newbie.
Trust me its what i do and it is pie in the sky deluded nonsense to think you could do it currently or easily from all professions.Like many things a few will succeed the majority will struggle/fail.

the link earlier gave the skills necessary to be a nurse they are

flexibility;– this measn you can do shift work and do different things when asked hardly unique
adaptability; – as above really
empathy;- well not all jobs need it but he is moving away from caring so lets ignore it
organisation and time management;- again who does not have this?
leadership;- you aint going to get amanagement job as a noob so irrelevant
determination and tenacity; Welll he has that in spades an will need ot to change jobs
the ability to conduct research.- one word Helmets – shame he cannot interpret it [ sorry TJ only kidding]

So what job for this skill set with no experience please. I only ask as i am intrigued to where the hive mind can advise me to do my job better – no retraining as that gives other skills.

Should be an amusing list
Again of course you can change jobs but it is close to impossibel currently and “transferable skills” dont really matter what employers want is experience…just start applying for jobs you have never done before if you doubt me. I bet you wont get an interview from 500 applications.

5th – no smiley, so I guess thats a straight point?

Yeah. I can’t say I’ve seen that anywhere I’ve worked. Pretty alien to me.

Big earners are sales people and top technical staff. Managers somewhere in the middle. The directors may be the best paid but not always.

but to attempt to do it in a recession where every industry has a pool of highly experienced recently made redundant individuals willing to work for much less than they were on in their last job using only your transferable skills and willingness to learn ….good luck

Aiieee, you’re right, may as well quit before you start then.

My company:

2009 3.5%
2010 nil
2011 nil

My wifes

2009 -5% to avoid redundancies
2010 2.5%
2011 2.5%

My brother

2009 nil
2010 redundant
2011 agency worker on less than he was before redundancy

My youngest brother

2009 2.4%
2010 2.25%
2011 ?

Not prepared to scan payslips for your evidence though

Not much point, all you’d find is more anecdotes

EWM – seems right, still can’t see why PC’s and the like shouldn’t have the same retirement regimes as the rest of us, no different to a labourer – just need to find ‘other’ work once you’re not physically up to it.
Plus, there is no way any other ‘working man’ would be able to afford to retire at 50.

So LHS you cannot offer anything of substance in response but will still give a pithy reply to show your disdain

can i do the same?

No no you are right everyone should swap jobs tomorrow as we can all do everything and anything we want as we have transferable skills- your powerful retort and overwhelming evidence has persuaded me of that

No no you are right everyone should swap jobs tomorrow as we can all do everything and anything we want as we have transferable skills- your powerful retort and overwhelming evidence has persuaded me of that

It’s good to hear he’s boosted your low self-esteem.

??
this place just gets more and more like the playground every day – no grown up debates just gobshite sounding off with no real knowledge and then not backing down and then odd random stuff like that.

Unfortunately you are trying to boost your own self image by belittling someone else …dont worry I forgive you, do you need a hug?
Not hard to do but somewhat pointless and childish.

FFS we are mainly middle aged men here 🙄

this place just gets more and more like the playground every day – no grown up debates just gobshite sounding off with no real knowledge and then not backing down and then odd random stuff like that.

No no you are right everyone should swap jobs tomorrow as we can all do everything and anything we want as we have transferable skills- your powerful retort and overwhelming evidence has persuaded me of that

no trolling, arguing or the usual rubbish please

🙄

FFS we are mainly middle aged men here

Speak for yourself JY, if I live that long, I get to retire in 34 years time now! 👿 and indeed 😆

The really disappointing thing is that we are actually all in it together, we all have to live here, we all want the same stuff, for ourselves, for our families, and so on, but we are reduced to bickering over scraps while others sit back and rake it in. Sad.

Good program on BBC2

Rich paying for the poor.

Apparently 12% of people employed in the private sector get pensions as good as the public sector according to BBC news tonight.
Not heard anything from anyone in such a scheme yet on any of these threads …but plenty from people in the private sector who want to bash the public sector pension schemes because their own pensions provision is poor.
The more pertinent question should be if some private sector companies can provide a good pension for their employees then why not more?

we’re all being shafted at the end of the day…

“We’re all in this together”, you mean? 😆

(by which I mean “you”, obviously)

His ideology is clear and clearly biased

hmmm, someone’s not been looking up tautology in the dictionary….

“Clear and clearly biased” is not a tautology because “clear” and “clearly biased” do not mean the same thing. You could, for example, have an ideology that was muddled and clearly biased, or one that was clear but not obviously biased. If you’re going to be pedantic…

The more pertinent question should be if some private sector companies can provide a good pension for their employees then why not more?

Because for the majority of companies they are unaffordable and would bancrupt the company, a bit like what is happening to the government.

LHS – its not unaffordable – Its because they can get away with it.

If all companies had to provide decent pensions there would be no competitive disadvantage. companies on the whole will give as little to their workforce as they can. The manage to provide huge remuneration to the bosses and huge pension funds. You are only taking a few % on costs

Some manage to – John Lewis for example.

Public sector pensions are not banckrupting the government – its perfectly affordable as the real numbers show.

The pay maybe the same but the NHS can’t make a profit
But if you want a soap dispenser on the wall equals to £ 65.00p Each.
and this would normally be Two items per room and how many rooms
in a Hospital ? But the Public sector person would be on an average
£ 180.00p per week.

Put it this way a friend of mine whom works for an East London NHS trust
Gets £ 180.00p per week He was told to fit the above soap dispensers
to every room in a Care Centre.
This had taken him 8 days and cost to us £ 288.00p

Private sector cheapest quote for same job £ 3,300.00p

This goes on day after day now re do your maths fella 😉

Regarding Pensions No one should have the right to tap into nor change
someones pension.
As this is whats left for you in your final years and being the average pay
in a Public pension is £ 7,500.00p per year and you think this is a tidy sum
to live on !
And the fact that the more money they are to pay in is not any finical gain to them
But to pay off the deficit ? Government needs to grow balls and get it back from the
banks, being thats where the debt lies!

LHS – its not unaffordable – Its because they can get away with it.

Who is they? What is this them and us attitude that you have?

Public sector pensions are not banckrupting the government – its perfectly affordable as the real numbers show.

Proof?

You need to get away from your fixation of FTSE 100 bosses and their salaries. You do know that these people account for less than 0.0001% of the population don’t you?

One of the main reasons why the public sector pension scheme needs to change is to stop the corrupt behaviour of many who are “promoted” just before they retire so they can sit on a bigger salary for their final salary pension! The new scheme of your pension calculated over your average earnings is much fairer and stops the blatent corruption.

In fact, from a work-life balance this is much better, it enables people in their 60’s to apply for less stressful jobs for the last few years before their retirement without forfitting lots of pension.

They – the board of the various companies

Thy may be a tiny % of the population but they take a large % of the profits of companies taht could be used to pay decent pensions

Proof for the affordability of public sector pensions – its been shown many times. Its a decreasing amount of GDP. Reducing public sector pension will increase benefits bills. Most schemes are either fully funded or have a taxpayer contribution cap.

I know you and others don’t want to hear this but its the truth. Its a far greater cost to the taxpayer allowing the private sector to get away without providing decent pensions as all those workers will have to get benefits instead.

There is plenty of money in the private sector – just the board members take it all ‘cos they can. They also pay less tax that the workforce ‘cos they tax avoid. the top 1% take 21% of the nations wealth. The top 5% 40% of the nations wealth.

Even if they did have to put up prices there would be no competitive disadvantage as everyone would have to.

Directors’ pay rose 50% in past year, says IDS report

LHS – Member

One of the main reasons why the public sector pension scheme needs to change is to stop the corrupt behaviour of many who are “promoted” just before they retire so they can sit on a bigger salary for their final salary pension

Nonsense – this is not a major issue. Do you have any evidence for your assertions?

I thought you would be able to see beyond the propaganda. clearly not

LHS – its not unaffordable – Its because they can get away with it.

I could probably afford a Porsche and a much bigger house
I’m not entirely sure that it’s a good idea to sign on the dotted line for them though
So yes, it’s not unaffordable they just don’t fancy committing to that spend right now

I think it’s a bit disingenuous of the unions to claim they’re fighting for everyone’s pension though, I’d like to see some evidence of that
I have to fully fund my own pension but I’m also a member of Unite
As I’m pretty much a lone member [AFAIK] in my company, they really aren’t interested in my situation and they certainly won’t fight or throw any resource at changing it.
I can’t imagine that they’ll continue with their action until all their members have a settlement whatever industry they’re in.
So fine, the unions should fight for their members in a particular corner of industry but say it as it is and don’t pretend that they’re doing it for anyone other than one sector.

Do you have any evidence for your assertions?

I have plenty of proof, friends from various areas who boast about how good they have it. Don’t keep your blinkers on, its very evident within both the public and private sector. Difference is that private companies have got rid of it over the last 10-15 years, time for the public sector to follow suit.

the top 1% take 21% of the nations wealth. The top 5% 40% of the nations wealth.

The top 5% also pay for the bottom 30% of the population. Don’t kid yourself!

Right – so what you have is hearsay not proof. I have never heard or seen of it happening and frankly don’t believe it is possible in the public sector. Now do you actually have any evidence let alone proof?

It time that private sector was forced to give decent pensions so the taxpayer does not have to provide the massive subsidy buy providing the pensions for the private sector workers.

Its a far far greater cost to the taxpayer of the lack of decent private sector pensions that the small cost of public sector ones.

Right – so what you have is hearsay not proof.

Nope, I have proof. I have a good number of friends who it has happened to.

Right – so what you have is hearsay not proof.
Nope, I have proof. I have a good number of friends who it has happened to.

You can’t argue with that TJ 😆 😛

I thought you were a scientist and would understand the difference between hearsay, anecdote,evidence and proof

You know large numbers of people in the public sector who are now retired and who corruptly were promoted in the last years of their work to get a higher pension?

personally I have never heard of this happening at all and in the NHS it would be virtually impossible as promoted posts are scarce and the promotion process is transparent and open.

Thy may be a tiny % of the population but they take a large % of the profits of companies taht could be used to pay decent pensions

A few million in a FTSE company is pretty much irrelevant. Money purchase pensions should be compulsory for all, that way there are no future problems for anyone – companies or the state which our children will have to pay for. Or do those without children care less about that?

mudshark – 1% of the population owning 21% of the nations wealth is a huge problem.

Its a direct cause of much of this nations ills. The more equal a society is the more happiness there is -for the rich as well. Because this small group take so much of the nations wealth the rest of us are impoverished – there is your private sector pension – being stolen by those with power.

“We support a system where pension payments are linked to career average earnings. It addresses the inherent inequalities of the current final salary arrangements which favour those who progress through the salary scales and, in particular, those who get a promotion just before retirement.”

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2011/mar/10/trade-unions-attack-pension-reforms

mudshark – 1% of the population owning 21% of the nations wealth is a huge problem.

Note to self- must work harder-

Right – so what you have is hearsay not proof.

Nope, I have proof. I have a good number of friends who it has happened to.

lol

lol

Laugh all you want, you’re the mugs who are striking for this to continue! 🙄

You bleat on about FTSE 100 bosses who are keeping the nation running, and yet the managers within the public sector are all patting themselves on the back 12 months before retirement with a quick promotion and an extra £10k for their pension. I’m not surprised they’re upset, I would be if I someone was taking that con away!

1% of the population owning 21% of the nations wealth is a huge problem

If it wasn’t for that 1% the bottom 30% wouldn’t have any money for the benefits they are claiming.

That is so ass backwards. if the 1% didn’t take all the money there would be more to go around and people could have higher wages and pensions.