Public vs Private (leave the trolling at the door)

I’m not going to argue with you about transferable skills or not. You either believe you have them or you don’t. There are thousands of people who switch careers throughout their life, its not an uncommon thing and you’re not unique.

I can’t help but think that the unions are again failing to think things through, they’re so flaming linear.

So you have an issue that you feel very strongly about so you want to make the government feel some pain – you call a strike and the only people that actually feel any pain are the strikers and the rest of the public.
It won’t hurt the government one bit but may well lose you some more support from outside of the sector.
It’s the public sector that does the government’s work, collects it’s taxes and polices its laws.
Surely you can you up with something far more effective and painful for the government?
Does anyone here actually think the strike will produce anything? – come on, think outside of the box a bit, you could really squeeze their balls a bit.

LHS – its a pity that you have so little understanding.

I have seriously looked into doing this and there is nothing beyond unsklilled work I could do without complete retraining. You have been unable to suggest anything, I have been to professional careers advisors who were unable to do so. junkyard who is a professional inthe feild is unable to do so.

LHS – its a pity that you have so little understanding.

As I said I am not going to argue with you about it, thats your interpretation of what you are capable of doing.

Some good advice for you:

http://www.prospects.ac.uk/options_nursing_your_skills.htm

Nothing like a bit of orchestrated ‘us’ vs ‘them’ tension to cover up the fact that we’re all being shafted at the end of the day…

This really.

Pay rises in the private sector are averaging 3% at the moment. Won’t be long now before companies start saying to employees ‘well the private sector are having a 15% reduction in real terms over 5 years, what makes you think you’re a special case?’.

Well, the NS is biased*, but given that there are no unbiased sourcesnaround, it is usefult to read something from the other side.

In fact the NS has writers from a wide range of political views, previously Amanda Platell, now writing for the Daily Mail. Also, the data presented is not biased and the presentation is not misleading.

Pay rises in the private sector are averaging 3% at the moment.

Well I can only speak for my own company but ……..

2009 0%
2010 – 0%
2011 – 1.5%

EDIT: some mates have had reductions too so I sort of feel lucky to have had 1.5% rise since June 2008

No LHS – its the truth from a position of knowledge. You have shown how little you know about my profession and skills set.

They are the official figures, apparently, hence my belief that private sector workers will be getting screwed even more in the near future.

Well I can only speak for my own company but ……..

2009 0%
2010 – 0%
2011 – 1.5%

Perhaps, but anecdote is not the singular of evidence

i think i’m going to do abit of devil’s advocacy for lhs here because i find i’m in disagreement with tj in principle if not detail.

now, as an example, let’s take a fellow who’s worked fpr the nhs for some 30 years. now this chap, far from being non-transferable, as tj says has had quite some number of private sector jobs, albeit mainly health related – those that weren’t for whoever it was thought that nursing and H&S are transferable, meant he had to go off and do a bit of training. all of that made him a sight employable when he was in occ health. not only that. while he was in the p[rivate sector the joy that was monday to friday working allowed him to do another degree and thus provide another string to his bow should the nhs go tits up.

unfortunately this attitude seems to be fairly alien to the nhs culture. while there’s a regular trickle of people coming into the service from other professions there doesn’t seem to be quite the same in the case of people exiting.

quite why this should be i can’t say beyond tj’s attitude of once a nurse, always a nurse which seems to me astonishing self limiting. that coupled with a nursing mindset that appears, to me at least, that any training or additional support should not be self generated but should be provided and paid for by someone else. true, there are many cultural factors that contribute to this. to usea bit of management speak, in my eyes, the nhs is remarkably non-empowering in this respect no matter what they claim (for example, was the chap to make this claim on a blog/facebook etc he’d be staring right down the barrel of a disciplinary – there are some things the nhs is quick about)

it seems an oddly insulated mindset that sees itself as still having a job for life. this would be great but in terms of workforce planning simply isn’t realistic – staff of 60+ on acute medical takes? – i don’t think so – aside from the physical aspect, the cognitive ability, or diminishment thereof, is fully supported in the literature.

in short then, i see this attitude that nurses can’t do anything else as idealistic at best and unimaginative and blinkered at worst. certainly it isn’t helpful for the individual. but a malleable work population who doesn;t think they can do anythiong else? just the way management likes them…

*i’d point out it’s not my intention to have a go at tj here, more soem opinions on the organsiation culture that produces some of the attitudes above.

No LHS – its the truth from a position of knowledge. You have shown how little you know about my profession and skills set.

As I said I am not going to argue with you about it, thats your interpretation of what you are capable of doing.

THM,

Not (alas) a joke at all.

Private schools are full of relatively well behaved kids in small classes with few or no SEN kids + parents with high expectations of them.

Generally speaking that makes them a much easier bunch to teach than kids in your average state school – therefore it’s much easier for someone with less *experience* (i.e. someone coming in from another profession) to teach them because there are fewer behavioural issues.

edit: in other words even if the barriers to entry were the same, those teachers from outside of the education system would probably find it much tougher to move into the state system anyway.

If you want some more camparison

My company:

2009 3.5%
2010 nil
2011 nil

My wifes

2009 -5% to avoid redundancies
2010 2.5%
2011 2.5%

My brother

2009 nil
2010 redundant
2011 agency worker on less than he was before redundancy

My youngest brother

2009 2.4%
2010 2.25%
2011 ?

Not prepared to scan payslips for your evidence though

craigxxl,

Was that everyone in each company, from the MD down?

Right

I have done a degree in my own time and at my own cost.

I have looked into this extensivly and there is simply nothing other than unskilled work outside of my profession I can do unless I do significant further training.

It show such ignorance of my profession that people think its easy and is simply a set of basic transferable skills. Its patronising. I have spent decades building these skills.
All those who think specialist nursing skills could be transferred to other jobs please tell me the jobs – I would be delighted to know

Proof, TJ?

I suppose some of it is about your intent of career. For example many friends went into financial services or IT at a relatively low level in order to progress within a career with the intention of moving up the career ladder.

This has also been the case for many colleagues within health and allied professions that I know. They wanted to be high fliers and being a bog standard Band 5 for a year or two was the door in.

Others, such as myself, want to be the best Nurse possible for my patients and provide that one to one hands on care. Progression in most directions would mean losing those opportunities and that skillset. Hence my choice of career progression and development is very specific and leaves me less employable outside of my profession – I have specialised myself out of wider opportunities.

My wife is moving in the other direction and will have a much wider range of transferable skills than most.

It is, however, my firm belief that both types of nurse are needed within health care for it to function effectively. Too much one way or the other and the system will fail.

Caveat – I appreciate that this is true in many other professions but I can only speak from what i know.

rightplacerighttime – Member
craigxxl,

Was that everyone in each company, from the MD down?

My Company, No management took no pay increase in 2009

My Wifes, no the management took a 10% reduction

My youngest brother, doubtful he’s a porter for the NHS.

It show such ignorance of my profession that people think its easy and is simply a set of basic transferable skills. Its patronising. I have spent decades building these skills.

Nobody is patronising you. Quite the opposite.

All those who think specialist nursing skills could be transferred to other jobs please tell me the jobs – I would be delighted to know

Everyone has been pointing out you have a wealth of non-specialised skills applicable to all kinds of roles.

If you’re looking for a job that isn’t nursing that has exactly the same specialist skills as a nurse you won’t find one.

If you’re looking for another role you’d be good at there will be plenty.

The official figure touted for FTSE bosses in 2010 and 2011 were 55% and, IIRC, 49%.

Which suggests to me that we (down here, whether private or public sector) are all in it together.

Which is why I can’t understand falling for divide and rule.

Personally, if the Govt were making the changes to our pay and pensions with the intention of pension redistribution to private sector workers I would find it much more paletable.

However, I suspect we (at the bottom end) will all be sat here with naff all in a few years whilst the ‘real them’ are laughing and sunning it up elsewhere.

((current salary – salary 5 years ago) / current salary) = 6.15%

Can you tell I’m not public sector?

If you’re looking for another role you’d be good at there will be plenty.

This is like something from Lewis Carroll.

What 5thelephant – please – I would like a change of direction. I have looked and beyond coming in at the ground floor in hosptality / tourism / retail I can see nothing nor can the professional advisors I have consulted

Everyone has been pointing out you have a wealth of non-specialised skills applicable to all kinds of roles.

a couple of people have claimed this

This is like something from Lewis Carroll.

Are you suggesting it’s some kind of fantasy that someone could be good at more than one job?

I’ve always found good people are good at all kinds of jobs. That’s who you try and recruit.

I can see nothing nor can the professional advisors I have consulted

What about your acting career?

my aunt became a doctor by studying through the OU whilst she was a nurse and had 3 kids to look after. so thats at least one career path

I am 50 – that would take 4 years full time study. I think I would get i yrs credit for the skills Ihave

CharlieMungus – Member
http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/the-staggers/2011/11/public-sector-strike

Some mythbusting

Worth reading in combination with:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/8923446/Why-my-school-will-stay-open-during-the-strike.html

Out of interest, why didn’t Wallace (or is it Grommit?) respond to Cameron’s jibe at lunchtime about being, “left-wing” with the reply, “yes, I am”?

And going back to the NS:

http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/the-staggers/2011/11/spending-review-union-trade

[/quote] There is, of course, a specific dispute at the heart of today’s action – the government’s proposals to reform public sector pensions. There is also, within that specific dispute, a detail that is often lost in reporting, which is the distinction between reforms set out in the report by Lord Hutton, subsequently watered down in negotiations, and changes introduced in last autumn’s spending review. The Hutton proposals are the basis of the deal that has been offered to — and rejected by — unions. But many public sector workers are just as aggrieved by a mandatory surcharge on their employee pension contributions averaging 3.2 per cent that was in the small print of the spending review. That was seen by many as a pre-emptive attack on pensions rushed through before negotiations on a long-term settlement even got under way.

Labour is keen to emphasise the surcharge for precisely that reason. It was imposed by the Treasury without discussion and looks and feels like a smash-and-grab raid. There is some disappointment at the top of the party that unions have not pushed this point further. But privately unions say they see no point going after the 3 per cent charge as they know this is a battle they cannot win. They are right. I was told recently by a cabinet minister with good knowledge of the pension negotiations with unions that the surcharge is non-negotiable. It isn’t even on the table. That is precisely because it is contained in the spending review. That document has acquired hallowed status in the government – it is the agreement on which the coalition’s whole commitment to fiscal discipline is based. Ministers from both governing parties see it as the measure that, more than anything else, bought the country long-term respite from any pressure from financial markets that have punished other indebted governments in Europe. (Whether or not this is a real danger — or was a danger in autumn last year — is an entirely different point.) The fact is, whatever disputes might arise within the coalition, there is absolute agreement that the spending review is closed and must not be re-opened. It is the emblem of fiscal credibility.

Teamhurtmore – that telegraph piece is long on opinion and devoid of facts unlike the staggers piece which has a bit of both – nfact the torygraph piece simply regurgitates a lie

Someone has to pay for public sector pensions – we’re all living longer, the economy is stagnating, and teachers ought to understand these facts.

They do. the teachers pension fund was reformed a couple of years ago precisely for this reason and now has a binding cap on taxpayer contributions – so teachers are paying for teachers pensions. any shortfall will come from teachers

Nay prob’s TJ – the article was written by a Head Teacher. Stupidly thought he might provide some insight.

Lets stick to a chief political commentators stuff in future – much more likely to be clued-in.

Actually re-reading some of the DT stuff makes me wonder whether this Head should be allowed anywhere near kids:

This is the paradox about the unions: on the one hand, they’re very Left-wing and want money poured into deprived areas, but, on the other, they reject the measures that do some good for children in poor communities. Sadly, some unionised teachers have lost sight of why they came into teaching. Trying to improve failing schools, I have faced obstruction from militant teachers who have become so bound up in ideology that they have forgotten the children. Very often, the unions won’t tolerate anything that threatens their beloved “work-life balance”.

Bl@@dy scandal, what people get away with these days!

Swiss01….if the reality is that deep down everybody knows that 65 year old DRs, paramedics and nurses isnt going to happen and that front line medical roles are jobs for younger people then there needs to widespread reform being led by the government, not nonsense about making the NHS retirement age 68 years old.

Pay employees significantly higher wages and do away with pensions altogether, then people have the option to spend the extra money on qualifications for a second career once their front line medical career is over or make their own investments re. pensions, property etc etc….because realistically there arent that many people in any role in the NHS over 55….and the government must be paying out a fair amount in medically retiring people before the age of retirement, this will happen more and more in the future unfortunately.

I could find you a head teachers opinion that contradicts that – he is not a head teacher anyway as he is the manager for more than one school.

His ideology is clear and clearly biased – and he is not in step with the majority of his profession

For the past 10 years, I have been head teacher at Woodberry Down primary school in Hackney, and I am executive head of four schools in total.

I wonder if there is any link between that and…

he is not in step with the majority of his profession

?

And his ideology:

I trained as a teacher because I wanted to improve people’s lives. This is what we try to do in our federation of schools. I love teaching. In fact, I’m looking forward to going into work today. By coming to school I will have helped to make a positive impact on children’s lives, and on their chances of finding fulfilment and reaching their potential – something I would not be able to do standing on Victoria Embankment waving banners.

Again its a bl@@dy scandal!!

deviant, i don’t think there’s any acceptance, let alone recognition, esp form nhs management that an ageing staff group in a pressure area is going to work, nor as far as i know is there any skill mix work going on that would support such an approach, which is a shame. i would contrast this with what i experienced in the states in that, if you wanted to be a manager, or work in a non frontline role, you got paid less so that experienced staff stayed in the acute areas until it got too much for them (or they got too expensive in which case the management machinated a sacking).

somebody somewhere suggested a pensions cap so that you couldn’t get a pension of more than twenty five grand. this seems fair to me. some form of salary ceiling seems reasonable also, particularly for those managers who seem, to me, to get paid an awful lot to go to an awful lot of meetings and spend little, if any time, actually in the place of work – and heaven forbid that they should actually appear in anything like an out of hours period!

His ideology is clear and clearly biased

hmmm, someone’s not been looking up tautology in the dictionary….

Swiss01….i would agree with the idea behind keeping good frontline staff in operational roles and paying managers less, this would see an end to the careerist managers in the NHS who just want to climb the greasy pole and keep managerial job vacancies for frontline staff who want to take a step back and have excellent previous experience to bring to a supervisory role.

Good plan that.

To give an example of some of the nonsense going on in the NHS where i work, a Paramedic friend of mine has just qualified….literally just qualified….i’m talking mere weeks since he was a student.
He has been a good student and will make an excellent Paramedic, here’s to many years good service and the Trust recouping the money back that they spent on his training….oh hang on, thats not going to happen because the service (in its infinite wisdom) has already made him a manager!….thats right folks, they have identified him as such a good Paramedic that they are prepared to remove him from that role almost immediately and put him behind a desk!

You couldnt make it up, of course he has accepted the promotion as its more money and he has some student debts to pay off but if anybody wanted an example of how barmy things are in the NHS then that is a great example.

i would agree with the idea behind keeping good frontline staff in operational roles and paying managers less, this would see an end to the careerist managers in the NHS who just want to climb the greasy pole and keep managerial job vacancies for frontline staff who want to take a step back and have excellent previous experience to bring to a supervisory role.

+1 – would the NHS/public sector have the foresight/flexibility to implement this? Not meant to be a biased question, but really a genuine one.

It takes special management to pay their top performers more than them (although this may be more extreme than you are suggestion).