Public vs Private (leave the trolling at the door)

5lab – thats the issue – it is not a contribution to the pensions at all. The teachers one is especially blatant

I was under the impression that public pensions come from ‘the big pot’. If after this change the pensions are still taking more out of ‘the big pot’ than those drawing the pensions are putting in, surely its still a subsidised pension, just the drawees are paying more towards their share?

I acknowledge the ‘pot’ is shared with other things, but if it was entirely seperated off and the government simply matched the public service employee’s input into the pot, it’d probably run dry pretty quickly

A nurse is what I am. Its far more than just a job. Even when not at work I reamin a nurse legally bound by my professional ethics and judged by the standards of being a nurse not a lay person

What characteristics make me good at my job?

Empathy, strong stomach, counselling skills, understanding of dementia, knowledge of anatomy and physiology, skills in performing complex mechanical tasks, abilty to set priorities, multitasking.

Few of my real skills are transferable elsewhere. Where do other jobs needs someone who can recognise when someone is distressed about their partner having dementia and find the right way to help them gain some understanding and acceptance of this?

Where does the ability to calm and soothe an agiatated person with dementia fit in outside of nursing?

you can aliken that to a brickie though. A brickie will be good at surveying a site, good at mixing mortar, good at climbing ladders/scaffolding, good at laying bricks. The vast majority of those skills are useless outside of bricklaying as well, but I don’t see many 60+year old brickies

Where does the ability to calm and soothe an agiatated person with dementia fit in outside of nursing?

You could ask an Engineer where material property data for a composite shaft could be required outside of composite engineering?

Or a lawyer where expert working knowledge of divorce law is required outside of that practice.

Or you could not focus on the details, and look at transferable skills, rather than non-transferable!

Hands in the pockets, hmph, don’t want to change so you can’t make me.

People move jobs, re-train, gain additional training to keep employed. Its a matter of looking at your skills and applying yourself. You’re not entitled to a job you know?
That’s not my point. If the suggested follow-on career paths have bugger all to do with a nurse’s skillset, then the suggestion might as well have been lion tamer, professional downhill MTBer or forex trader.

That it Konabuynny./

hing is the people suggesting that I should leave nursing simply show they have no understanding of my skills set and what the job requires.

That it Konabuynny./

hing is the people suggesting that I should leave nursing simply show they have no understanding of my skills set and what the job requires.

Different take on things, looking at TJ’S figures a qualified Nurse in the Forces earns significantly more than their counterparts in the NHS. When not on operations many work effectively for the NHS, but can be argued are doing 2 jobs and at present have less job security.

What characteristics make me good at my job?

Empathy, strong stomach, counselling skills, understanding of dementia, knowledge of anatomy and physiology, skills in performing complex mechanical tasks, abilty to set priorities, multitasking.

There you go. Plenty of those are valid in all kinds of areas.

Few of my real skills are transferable elsewhere.

Most jobs require little in the way of specific skill but rely on the soft-skills you listed above.

Where do other jobs needs someone who can recognise when someone is distressed about their partner having dementia and find the right way to help them gain some understanding and acceptance of this?

Not many I’d imagine, but the soft-skills behind that practical application are valid in other areas.

Where does the ability to calm and soothe an agiatated person with dementia fit in outside of nursing?

The exact opposite of what you do in helmet threads? 😯

If you want to be a nurse that’s great. If you want to apply your skills to something else then you certainly have them.

LHS,

You have a particularly short sighted attitude.

Our health service and education systems benefit hugely from having time served, experienced staff who understand the system and can keep it running under the onslaught of new initiatives from central Govt.

These people are hard to replace because the system is complicated and relies on lots of personal interactions – knowledge and experience are often as important as “skills”

It’s much easier to replace one brickie with another as they don’t need so much to “fit in” with a large team.

It is probably unreasonable to suggest that someone who is good at nursing would also be good at managing nurses. The knowledge would be useful but the skills different. It certainly wouldn’t be the case for all nurses that they could make the transition. I have first hand experience of people who were technically good at their job (chemists) then promoted to management (of me) and turned out to be thoroughly useless, they eventually improve though.

We have guys in our factory who do a very physical job, they are now having to retire at 68? I’m fairly certain this will be the case amongst many other jobs in the public and private sector. But generally are people not getting healthier and living longer lives and remaining active for longer, so perhaps they could continue to work for longer. Could they have done the job at 65 ten years ago?

This is something society and government is going to have to tackle. Not sure of the answer but having more pensioners isn’t the answer unless we find a way to fund them. I was under the impression that traditionally the retirement age was set up at the average life expectancy. Probably done to manage the number of pensions that had to be paid. To expect to have a 20 year retirement is quite a luxury.

We have guys in our factory who do a very physical job, they are now having to retire at 68?

Not sure of the answer but having more pensioners isn’t the answer unless we find a way to fund them.

The current answer seems to be doing a few years in semi-retirement at Homebase once you’re too knackered to be of further use in your primary career.

LHS,

You have a particularly short sighted attitude.

Our health service and education systems benefit hugely from having time served, experienced staff who understand the system and can keep it running under the onslaught of new initiatives from central Govt.

These people are not only essential, but hard to replace because the system is complicated and relies on lots of personal interactions – knowledge and experience are often as important as “skills”

It’s much easier to replace one brickie with another as they don’t need so much to “fit in” with a large team.

I don’t disagree wth what you’re saying, I fully understand the value of experienced staff. My point is that people are saying they can’t leave their current profession because there is nothing in the private sector that they could transfer in to. Which is rubbish and short sighted.

I’m not suggesting people leave, but if they choose to then look past the end of their nose!

Nice comparison with a “brickie” to highlight your point! 🙄

It is probably unreasonable to suggest that someone who is good at nursing would also be good at managing nurses.

No, no, no, no. You’ll never make it as a politician if you’re going to say that.

You’re supposed to say that you’ll fire “NHS bureaucrats” and you’ll “give more power back to ward sisters and matrons” (to distract them from the job of patient care and manage massively complex procurement, IT, construction and financing projects).

The current answer seems to be doing a few years in semi-retirement at Homebase once you’re too knackered to be of further use in your primary career.

When did retiring become a good thing?

Mandatory retirement devastated my grandparents. My grandmother (a nurse) made a career of writing indignant letters to politicians asking for her job back for 20-odd years after she retired.

KHS -you fail to understand just how specialised my skill set and those of others in a similar position is. Really I have looked into this. Its not short sighted its reality

My grandmother (a nurse) made a career of writing indignant letters to politicians asking for her job back for 20-odd years after she retired.

You should have insisted she retrained and got into private Sector nursing, care home work, private home help management, occupational health or Health & Safety.

would the better way be to set the retirement age (for both the state pension, and public pensions – I don’t see why they’d be any different) at ‘85% of life expectancy’ for that year? so if one year, life expectancy is 80, you retire at 68. if a couple of years later, it’s 85, you retire at 71, and so on. Then you have a rolling target and don’t need to have reforms which cause these conflicts

KHS -you fail to understand just how specialised my skill set and those of others in a similar position is. Really I have looked into this. Its not short sighted its reality

I disagree, you are no different from any other skilled worker.

My point is that people are saying they can’t leave their current profession because there is nothing in the private sector that they could transfer in to.

My point is “thank goodness for that” – otherwise we might be seeing people that we NEED disappearing in droves, because even with a vocation to particular work, at some point you can no longer afford to carry on.

IMHO all of this pensions strife isn’t really about money – it’s about security.

Lots of people who go into the public sector have done so, not expecting to get rich, and probably without great prospects or the option of transferring easily into another job should they feel like a change – but in return what they did expect and trust in was some security for later life.

This whole episode isn’t just about the Govt taking away money, it’s about taking away trust that they will do the right thing by public sector workers.

You should have insisted she retrained and got into private Sector nursing, care home work, private home help management, occupational health or Health & Safety.

She tried. Literally couldn’t get a job over 60 back then.

would the better way be to set the retirement age (for both the state pension, and public pensions – I don’t see why they’d be any different) at ‘85% of life expectancy’ for that year? so if one year, life expectancy is 80, you retire at 68. if a couple of years later, it’s 85, you retire at 71, and so on. Then you have a rolling target and don’t need to have reforms which cause these conflicts

Wasn’t the state pension age set 2 years before the average age of death when it was introduced?

My point is that people are saying they can’t leave their current profession because there is nothing in the private sector that they could transfer in to. Which is rubbish and short sighted.

so what you are saying is that the public and private sector do exactly the same thing and all roles are the same so swapping between them is very easy?….so teachers, nurses, firepeople etc could just swap to private providers [ all of them obviously].
Perhaps you are saying that in the current economic climate it would be esy to use my transferable skills to change areas I work in …..given I work in the field of the unemployed I would question this as every area has skilled people with experience currently unemployed – why would they train me to do the job someone else can already do?
certainly a few could transfer but to think even a sizable minority could is not accurate.
It is not impossible for some to do [ say an accountant], it is very very hard for most to do and impossible for everyone to do it.

you are no different from any other skilled worker.

so highly skilled offshore oil engineer would do what in the public sector exactly? a highly skilled industrial chemist would od what in the public sector.
I am a careers adviser and you are just talking out your rear here.Skills and knowledge are generally specific to industries/occupations [ unless of course you wish to argue experience counts for nothing] you cannot just change careers because you have skills an are bright [ in either direction]. You certainly cannot do it when the economy and recruitment is on its arse just because you have communications skills and are good with people.
Yes some occupations exist in both sectors but not all.

When did retiring become a good thing?

About the same time as we did away with the poor house?

But it’s not as if all of those public sector workers ARE going to be retiring on their current £6 k pensions as it stands is it?

This isn’t a question of whether public sector workers will be taking slightly shorter cruises in their retirement you know?

Personally I have no expectation of ever “retiring”, but it would be nice to have some choice about how one manages one’s decline.

JY/TJ – why adopt such a self limiting approach?

TJ – you list a combination of admirable skills/experience – some are job specific, some are applicable in a wide areas. If (and I am not saying that you are BTW) you define yourself by your recent role ie, A nurse is what I am, then you are making it harder for yourself. If however, you define yourself as an individual with a wide skills set then you may find more opportunities, including in surprising areas. However, you demonstrate a passion and pride in your role, so perhaps the best thing is to wish you well in finding a vacant role to fill.

JY – its not easy, no, but equally not impossible. There are plenty of private sector jobs dealing with UN people – especially now!

Its interesting in teaching, that the private sector has more flexibility in hiring. So people who have wider experience in business can become teachers much faster in the independent sector. From experience, a relative’s best teachers are biased towards those with wider (non-teaching) experience. Few of them, would be able to transfer quickly into the state sector, so guess where they go?

would the better way be to set the retirement age…at ‘85% of life expectancy’ for that year?

Whose life expectancy – a Glasgow man’s (70.7) or a Chelsea woman’s (88.9)? A labourer’s or a surgeon’s?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/8317986.stm

So people who have wider experience in business can become teachers much faster in the independent sector.

Because they don’t have to learn all the crowd control (behaviour management) stuff – it really is as simple as that.

edit (and fewer policy hoops to jump through)

Its interesting in teaching, that the private sector has more flexibility in hiring.

In this context, does “flexibility in hiring” teachers in UK private schools still mean people without any academic or professional qualification beyond a working with children check can be hired?

would the better way be to set the retirement age (for both the state pension, and public pensions – I don’t see why they’d be any different) at ‘85% of life expectancy’ for that year? so if one year, life expectancy is 80, you retire at 68. if a couple of years later, it’s 85, you retire at 71, and so on. Then you have a rolling target and don’t need to have reforms which cause these conflicts

Life expectancy varies so much around the country. For example it is less than 71 for Glasgow, compared to about 77 for the national average. 71 is bad enough but there are some districts within the city when it is about 54. It might not get quite that bad elsewhere in the UK, but there will still be a huge disparity in life expectancy based based on social and economic circumstances.

http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/the-staggers/2011/11/public-sector-strike

Some mythbusting

moved from the yes/no thread ashere is for ‘discussion’

The moneys not there because of the Bankers nothing to do with the Public Sector

but the general public was complicit in over leveraging on depreciating goods (cars/plasma-tv’s etc) and overpriced fixed assets (houses) the banks lent but the public borrowed as did the ever expanding public sector. the U.K. has some of the highest levels of public and private debt. it’s only the ability to print £’s that stops us being in the same situation as ireland/greece/spain/italy

striking is just protectionism, we all have to take a dose of the medicine whether we like it or not.
2%? plenty of private sector wages have down not up (especially at the sharp end not director level)

I can see TJ being a replacement for the late Jimmy Saville and help resurrect prime-time Saturday Evening entertainment. The nemesis of Simon Cowell

Jezza’ll Fix It!!!

I’d watch that. Kids right in with the stuff they’ve always dreamed of doing. Uncle Jezza gets them in to inform them that they’re wrong, they don’t really want to do that, they want to do something much more worthwhile and rewarding. He sends them away to lead much fuller lives 😀

CharlieMungus – Member
http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/the-staggers/2011/11/public-sector-strike

Some mythbustingFrom the New Statesman. Do you consider that to be an unbiased source? I give you one example..

We can debate the merits of industrial action as a form of protest. But with public sector workers facing a triple crunch – higher contributions, a tougher inflation index and lower benefits

That “triple crunch” is affecting everyone, not just public sector. The NS is as complicit in the them/us viewpoint as the Daily Mail

Where does the ability to calm and soothe an agiatated person with dementia fit in outside of nursing?

Advisor to the House of Lords?

🙁

Nothing like a bit of orchestrated ‘us’ vs ‘them’ tension to cover up the fact that we’re all being shafted at the end of the day…

http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/the-staggers/2011/11/public-sector-strike

Some mythbusting

Trouble is – you can’t trust them to be unbiased any more than the others, they have their bias and spin it accordingly

Because they don’t have to learn all the crowd control (behaviour management) stuff – it really is as simple as that.

RPRT – I guess from the edit, that this was a joke (at least the bit after the hyphen)

edit (and fewer policy hoops to jump through)

For sure!

In this context, does “flexibility in hiring” teachers in UK private schools still mean people without any academic or professional qualification beyond a working with children check can be hired?

I don’t know in general, but in my limited experience, of course not!! Indeed some bring a breadth of academic and professional experience and qualification and the schools in question demand it!!

JY/TJ – why adopt such a self limiting approach?

Post grad qualified Careers adviser working daily with the unemployed …you think I need your advice [ no offence intended with thart as it reads ruder than it is meant] ?

JY – its not easy, no, but equally not impossible. There are plenty of private sector jobs dealing with UN people – especially now!

Pretty close to impossible currently I would say. Re my role they put them out to tender then pay you on results…do you want to be paid on how many unemployed people you can get into work in the current economic climate? none are achieving 50% of their targets- that would still be govt funded by taxes but we would now just have a private company making profit as well.

It would not be impossible for an investment banker to get a job in the public sector but if 1000 tried how many would succeed? I would not advise anyone to have this as their sole career goal as it is at best uncertain. The same would apply form me going to the private sector ..it might happen but it is more likely it wont.

No offence this is not really an area i wish to discuss on STW as its my job and I am happy I know the most , for once 😀
You cannot use this rule with economics obviously 😉

Now its sunny o’clock and I am off to ride as i have done my picketing for today

The staggers does give a good evidence based counterpoint to teh myth of unaffordable public sector pensions

For now, here are two myths that deserve to be rebutted again. The first is that public sector pensions, in their current form, are “unaffordable”. David Cameron, for instance, has frequently claimed that the system is “broke”. But as the graph below from the government-commissioned Hutton Report shows, public sector pension payments peaked at 1.9 per cent of GDP in 2010-11 and will gradually fall over the next fifty years to 1.4 per cent in 2059-60. The government’s plan to ask employees to work longer and pay more is a political choice, not an economic necessity.

JY – I wasn’t meaning to question your professional expertise either – merely the mindset (again that sounds ruder than I mean). But while the correlation between positive thinking and positive results is not perfect, the one between negative (limited) thinking and negative (limited) results is!!

Enjoy the ride – wrap up warm!

I know I was partly taking the piss as I argue in areas where you clearly know more than me.
Ye syou are right but positivity alone does not control the outcome….Despite the cynicism i do say stuff like that above at work
Sunny here but putting my hat on I hate cold ears