Project 5 watts per kg.

Evening all, please feel free to just completely ignore this thread. But thought I’d share a commitment I’ve just made to myself and will keep this thread updated every once in a while as I make progress.

So I had a bit of an epiphany last night and thought I’d post on here about it so as to hopefully add motivation and also draw on extra motivation of you folk on here to help achieve what I’m going to try an undertake over the next year.

I’ve seen people do massive weight loss transformations etc when they are dedicated and start from an seriously overweight starting point. I had a thought to myself..

“could with similar dedication a fairly regular rider who is a bit overweight but fairly fit concsiously transform to be a pretty competitive athlete”

So I’ve decided I’m going to undergo a transformation from a fairly mediocre, probably faster than average (had a few KOMs and a few top 10s) but certainly nothing special cyclist.

I currently weigh 83kg at 5ft10 (lost 2-3kg over the last week having cleaned my diet up which is one of the things that has got me thinking) and without having a really up to date FTP test I reckon my 1hr sustainable power is about 280 watts. Possibly 265.

I reckon I can get down to 70kg in a reasonably timely fashion as I’m a bit tubs (34″ waist) and also am carrying a bit of upper body mass from about 2 decades of weight training (it’s started to disappear a lot in recent years with riding).

Question is, can I raise my FTP to 350 whilst losing this weight. I’m commited to it and have decided in adding 2 highly structured HIIT sessions to my currently weekly routine plus another one at the weekend if for some reason I can’t get a 4-5hr block in the saddle on a weekend.

Starting diet for June involves, zero alcohol, processed and fatty meats and absolutely no refined carbohydrate or sugar.

I figure at 5 watts per kg I should be a completely different animal.

Here goes… watch this space 🙂

It’s long been told on here that if you are already a reasonable cyclist you can’t lose weight at the same time as increasing power.

It certainly seems to be the case with me – I can do one or the other. It might be counterproductive to attempt it.

I’d need to hit at least 400W for FTP for me to hit that figure. I’m currently investigating how much power I can gain by squatting large weights in the gym.

you’ll need this

https://www.torproject.org/projects/torbrowser.html.en

Fair play sir, I’m similar physiology to you albeit a little shorter, so interested in how it works out

Good luck. 265 to 350 is a big jump. you are about the same dimensions as me, although i am a bit lighter 73kg. I am about 280ftp, when very fit i can hold 350 for a max of 6 mins. Getting up to an hour at 350 is achievable i think with dedication. but i mean pro dedication.

I’d agree molgrips for most people, however I’ve got a good 10kg of muscle up top I can shed. Which I hope will be the difference. As stated I’m also a bit tubs too. Guess we’ll find out.

5w/kg FTP will make you a proper animal. What kind of rider are you? That’s tickling elite road territory. You

At 5w/kg your approching pro-road level. Are you really that good?

How long are you planning to take on this project? What, probably an increase of between 10-20% is achievable on FTP over the course of a winter’s training??

Prob depends a lot on your age – dropping 15%+ bodyweight whilst boosting ftp by approx. 30% sounds hugely ambitious given you’re already pretty fit. The massive transformations you’re talking about are for couch potatoes who’ve done nowt for 35 years.

Good luck in any case – even if you got only part way there it would be very significant. 5W per kg is huge, though – might be a regular thing for the pros we read about, but dishing that out on the amateur level would be beastial.

How long.. aiming to peak high at the Fred Whitton next year (didn’t get an entry this year and have a couple of very quick friends I want to prove a point to). Got a time in my head of like to achieve (sub 6hr45).

But if I’m not there then that doesn’t mean it stops. Might take 4 years… who knows.

First stage is to shift this timber. I’m aiming for 1kg per week whilst training both turbo and weights hard to maintain power and mass in my legs as my bodyweight comes down.

What type of rider… I’m currently a sprinter but can happily ride century’s. Ride road and mtb.

My favourite recent discovery is the ‘10% every 20weeks’ rule.

Yes you can increase faster on a time crunched type plan for up to 10 weeks but you will lose your mojo, your health or your fitness and another 10weeks later will see you back at or below that rule of thumb.

Also, there was the Blog post from Friel saying that (with a ton of caveats) your FTP ‘should be’ 4.5w/kg. So once you reach that, I would imagine the ‘10% every 20weeks’ would slow down.
For Pro’s with high natural ability, that can slow to as little as 1% per year over a 17year career.

My personal take on the weight loss v power gains theory is that you can do both if you lump it under the heading of ‘w/kg’. So don’t worry whether it’s FTP rising or weight falling as long as the ‘w/kg’ is trending upwards.

I’m shooting for 4.0w/kg by the end of the year myself from 85kg/308w (3.6) at the moment. That’s almost bang on ‘10% every 20 weeks’ too…

Good luck with it! I’ll follow with interest.

Unless the standard has improved in the last few 5 years, there really aren’t that many XC riders out there? who genuinely have an FTP above 5W/kg. You be easily top 20 maybe top 10 on a good day.

If you are looking for a 25% FTP increase, I think you’d take at least 2 probably? 3 years of dedicated training to get there.

From what little I’ve read, extrapolating a 60min FTP value from a 20min workout needs to be taken with a generous pinch of salt, just like Strava’s estimated power values.

I’ve never done a proper FTP test, but Strava and the data-tastic Stavistix plugin churn out differing numbers on my rides.

But good luck on your quest!

Hate to put a downer on the whole thing, but raising FTP from 280-350 is probably a 2-3yr endeavour on its own without the weight loss.
A lot of people train properly and don’t ever break 4W/Kg so 5 is very ambitious – as others have said, thats getting into the territory of getting paid to ride your bike.

Yeh I’ve not extrapolated it. As I say I havent done one to verify it and it could even be a bit higher.

I’ve looked at what my heart rate is doing at different powers on some light intervals I’ve done recently and am 99% sure I could hold 265 for well over an hour (that’s using the output from a tacx Vortex I’m using). Could be as high as 280 but not higher as I know at 300 I fade slightly after about 10 minutes.

I’ll do a proper ftp when I’ve shifted this cold.

No downer taken fifeandy. I don’t take no for an answer and I certainly don’t set out saying I don’t think I can achieve this. I’ve got a goal and I’m shooting for it. If I fail to hit 5w/kg I’ll be faster regardless

It will be interesting to see what he can achieve if he really has a sprinter’s body.

How are you measuring FTP? On the turbo? I always found it far far more difficult to maintain power on a turbo that I knew I could do on the road. Maybe 15-20% less for the same RPE.

I am a similar weight and the same height as you OP.

I have no idea on my power output, I have started to keep an eye on HR during rides as a means of gauging effort and that seems to help me with moderating workloads so that I can ride further and/or longer.

I certainly need to adjust my diet a fair bit but I am half at the whim of SWMBO there…

I would be interested to see how your experiment goes, but I’m more interesting to see how general stamina and endurance last as weight goes down and what sort of training regime you manage to work in around daily life.

Is targeting a specific W/kg figure the way to go? Or should you just focus on weight loss while maintaining fitness and simply measure power at key points just to tune your training…

I’m guessing that no you can’t. Unless you are seriously lucky with your genetics.

The training you describe will be unlikely to be sufficient. Plus, presuming that number in your username is your DOB then there’s your age to consider too.

But you are likely to make some serious gains, be healthier, faster, fitter and happier so go for it!

Good luck with the project

On paper it sounds like a big ask, however in the last year and a half I’ve had a similar experience. I was a mid to top 10 sport racer but never trained seriously. I bought? a smart trainer and power meter, and started using zwift and traineroad a couple of winters ago. I started at 68kg and roughly 240ftp. About 3.6wpk.
Now I’ve dropped 9-10kg and gains 45watts in power to give me a 4.8wpk.
I’ve had top 10 finishes in the expert cat at nationals this year and started road racing too, however currently sidelined due some cat 4 idiot crashing infront of me sending me over the bars and breaking my scaphoid. I did finish the race and score enough to move up to Cat3 after 2 races. My main problem is with low weight but still generally low power sticking with heavier more powerful riders on the flat seems tough.
My aim next season is to move up to elite MTB but I reckon I’ll need to build another 40-50 watts to be competitive. Got a tough winter ahead

Good luck, it is possible!

Sebgt you sound pretty well endowed genetically 🙂

Small buggers always do better at MTB.

Also, your diet change sounds quite radical which will probably make it unsustainable. If you truly do press on towards 5w/kg, you’ll have NathB’s new problem- struggling to eat enough 😆

As a small bugger i’d dispute that, being small isn’t all good at all.
As sebgt pointed out, with small weight comes small power and over rough sections (which are pretty common when mtbing) you are at a serious disadvantage.
Where being small is at its best is a nice smooth steep road climb.

I would have thought it would be tough, I have always weighed give or take 66 kgs and I have been training up to 14 hours a week and got to 310 FTP, which is about 4.7w/kg. I think the only way I could get it higher is with a time machine (I’m 41), giving up work & family and being ultra picky about diet. Still not managed to progress beyond cat3, although I did nail cat 3 in 4 days earlier this year. As said above, power on the flat, and low max power means I struggle to place in flat road races.

It will be interesting to see what he can achieve if he really has a sprinter’s body.

How are you measuring FTP? On the turbo? I always found it far far more difficult to maintain power on a turbo that I knew I could do on the road. Maybe 15-20% less for the same RPE.

Definitely a sprinter, rode with a new road club chaingang last week and didn’t realise at the end we’d entered a sprint race for the final stop (I just thought we’d picked it up a bit). When I realised what was happening I opened it up and dropped 95% of the field. Ask anyone who rides with me and they’ll tell you I’m happiest when sprinting.

As I say I haven’t properly measured it yet. I’m using a tacx vortex for power. At 265 my hr is at a level I know I can hold for a long time. At 280 it’s at a level I know will tire but at what point I don’t know. It’s currently an estimate. Will do a proper test when I’ve shifted a cold I’ve had since Wednesday.

I would be interested to see how your experiment goes, but I’m more interesting to see how general stamina and endurance last as weight goes down and what sort of training regime you manage to work in around daily life.

Yeh I’m conscious as I drop weight my power might start coming down too. Won’t know until it happens though.

Training at the minute is loose as I’m more focused on a highly strict diet to shift the weight but loosely for the next 8 weeks until I break for 6 weeks off in the summer (school teacher)

Monday- zone 2 commutes plus turbo hiit
Tuesday- mtb night ride with club
Wednesday- road chainring
Thursday- zone 2 commutes + hiit in the evening.
Friday- heavy squats
Sat or Sun one long ride minimum 4 hours. Rest the other day.

Plus, presuming that number in your username is your DOB then there’s your age to consider too.

But you are likely to make some serious gains, be healthier, faster, fitter and happier so go for it!

Good luck with the project

Cheers, it’s not… I’m 34 born in 82. Long story behind the username

Yeah but you have FS to help you out. I always felt big at XC races, I’m only 5’11. Perhaps it depends where you are racing and the terrain.

I no longer have a powertap, so I can’t really get a quantitive answer on whether or not squats help. I have a feeling that weight training is playing to my personal strengths.

This ‘suggested hours’ chart From Friel may be an eye opener too.
The Coggan chart puts 5.0w/kg ftp as being a US cat1 which Friel would imply you’d need 700-1000 hours per year to achieve.

700 a year is achievable 1000 probably not quite.

Out of interest, how many hours have you done in 2017 so far?

One of the reasons I love the Training Bible so much is that it addresses all of these points and quantifies them.

I *think* he says you will struggle with volume increases of greater than 15% per year……

Will be interested to follow, pre children (2 years ago now…) I started taking things serious, similar height at 5’11 dropped to around 72kg started going lower but wife commented I looked ill. FTP was in the region of 300 for that period. About 10hrs riding per week, 5 hours stretching and strength, very strict diet So just over 4w/kg was enough for me to start taking koms locally (the ones not held by a local clubs peloton) when I gave it some beans and a pretty good finish at big dog. If you were to get to 5w/kg that would be very very impressive.

I have my own challenge to keep some form through the first 6 months of #2 try to keep my weight around 78 and my FTP around 280

Ah.. it was on the next page 😆

It says 5-10% annual increase unless you’re well short of your target Cat in which case 15% max.

Out of interest, how many hours have you done in 2017 so far?

One of the reasons I love the Training Bible so much is that it addresses all of these points and quantifies them.

I *think* he says you will struggle with volume increases of greater than 15% per year..

It’s varied a lot. I’ve had a period this year where I was doing 150 to 200 miles per week. Some weeks as low as 30 miles. Really not been “training” at all, just riding.

Just checked Strava 1500 miles so far this year. About 500 are serious mountain bike miles though so probably equivalent to having done about 2000 road miles so far this year.

Still been doing a bit of weight training in top of this though so body is used to regular beating.

I don’t believe volume is the key to greater power output though, structured training to increase power is what I’m going with for that on top of my current riding. As I’ve said though… first phase is to shift 13kg or so of weight whilst keeping my legs the size and power they are at 83kg.

I know I can get a far higher power output on my Vortex than in real life, fairly sure it overreads substantially. Once I get my P1s fixed I’ll do a comparison. I can sit at 330w for 25 minutes on my Vortex, barely even done 300w outside.

Doesn’t necessarily mean the Vortex is wrong, but it feels too high to me.

Interesting. I bought it based in great reviews about it’s accuracy lol.

Saying that, I reckon I must be pushing those kind of wattage otherwise my current wpkg would be too poor for some of the strava times I put in. Got a few top 10s on a ride the other day without targeting anything (976 people on one of the boards). I’m inclined to think mine seems about right.. I’ve got no way if verifying it though. Can’t imagine tacx creating a product that is out by miles though?

Anyway. That’s me done…

Will post back when I’ve done my first FTP test properly

If you have the cash, a watt bike would be the ideal tool, if measurment is your goal. it would allow you to accurateley see week to week where you are going fitness wise. at the moment you are just using quess work.

@chilled, despite improvements in training methods for time crunched athletes, there is still a very strong correlation between volume and results.

Read up on polarised training – it seems most elite athletes across all endurance sports are still doing huge quantities of low intensity work.

Think most riders up around your target power are doing 15-20hrs/wk on the bike, and i suspect in many cases that means they have a particularly understanding/flexible employer.

Definitely keep us updated though as it’ll be an interesting journey.

You can certainly get round the FW without 5w/kg, that’s for sure.

I don’t think you’ll get to that figure though, good genes are a requirement, and the fact you say you’re a sprinter makes me think you’ve got the wrong genes?

A mate went for a physiology test at (i think) loughborough uni; do one of them, that should tell you if you’ll be able to get anywhere close.

Can’t imagine tacx creating a product that is out by miles though?

Well obviously they don’t try and do it, its just how it is. Like I say, could be right, I actually always thought my P1s underread slightly, and I never had my PowerTap at the same time to compare.

It’s a bit of a moot point, as long as it’s consistent the number isn’t all that important unless you’re using multiple devices and/or comparing to people in the pub/internet.

Strava is a totally pointless yardstick though. I have (/had) about 50 KOMs, but would struggle to hit 4w/kg for an hour. You’ve already said you’re a powerful rider, presumably it wasn’t an hour long segment you were in the top 10 of?

As you say, see where you are, I look forward to watching your journey. It’s certainly an ambitious target.

Strava is a totally pointless yardstick though. I have (/had) about 50 KOMs, but would struggle to hit 4w/kg for an hour.

My ftp is about 2w/kg and I’ve got a few KOMs so clearly an awful yardstick 🙂