[Closed] Project 5 watts per kg.

I think you're right. Will be happy with 4.1 w/kg in the next 12 months. Doesn't change the end goal though

From where you are, I think 4 w/kg with a rough split of 300W / 75kg would a reasonable 12 month target. Think the next 6 months will tell you a lot about how achievable it all is.

Anyone got any suggestions to keep a winter exercise regime interesting and varied?

4.50am alarm - different tune each day
5am - start on turbo or rollers which box set
6.15am - swap to turbo or rollers
7.45am - stretch now or this evening

6.30pm - turbo or rollers which box set
7.45pm - hi dear how was your day trough, trough, trough zzzzzzz

4.50am alarm
5am - oh goody today's Z3 so music instead of tv etc

Doing it the other way round would probably be the 'normal' way to go, although with less obvious short term gains. Think Wiggins, Thomas, Dumoulin, all had the power to begin with and then cut to get the W/Kg.

Plus training with all that extra weight round your belly will help keep the legs big.

[b]chilled76[/b], if you have the time and put the effort in, there is no reason you couldn't be at or very close too, where you want be by the end of the year.

I went from [u]just[/u] winning (a long time ago) the Scottish 3/4 development RR series, to mixing with and beating elites on the road the next season.

I went from around 68/69kg (10% body fat) to 64/65kg @ 5'8"
I was doing around 15-25hrs on the bike with 2-3 gym sessions a week.

One thing I would recommend is, use a heavy mtb (buy a fat bike, thats what I use now) with fat draggy/flat tires for your commute and possibly some training sessions on the road, just that extra bit of resistance really helps build the strength.

Remember, its about quality, not quantity when it comes to workouts.

I was doing around 15-25hrs on the bike

Remember, its about quality, not quantity when it comes to workouts.

😯

25 hours isn't 'quantity' ?

I've no clue what you lot are on about but good luck OP 😀

What exactly do you think I'm doing to shift the weight? Eating slim fast shakes and not training?

And in agreement with the last few posters, power first, weight later, it's far far easier that way round. It's what every pro i know does every year. Ignore weight until a few weeks before the season starts. Then even a minor dip in food will see weight falling off. Though it's all relative (Usually only talking 4 or 5 kilos), and doesn't work for everyone.

[quote="molgrips"]25 hours isn't 'quantity' ?For a nice solid 5W/kg FTP, no. Just barely enough. 😉

What exactly do you think I'm doing to shift the weight? Eating slim fast shakes and not training?
It sounded like you were "cutting", and from the few weight lifters i know, it consists of trying to kill yourself through a shitty diet and trying not to black out.
And in agreement with the last few posters, power first, weight later, it's far far easier that way round. It's what every pro i know does every year. Ignore weight until a few weeks before the season starts. Then even a minor dip in food will see weight falling off. Though it's all relative (Usually only talking 4 or 5 kilos), and doesn't work for everyone.

Hey apologies for the slightly arsey response matey. It's just I posted the diet changes in my original post.

Not coming at this from a bodybuilding cut stance at all.

I agree power first then cut second... but that also works in cycles. Having ridden quite a lot and fairly hard for the last 12 months with not much weight loss I want to start with a cut for now.

Not coming at this from a bodybuilding cut stance at all.

Probably some confusion because you're using the term "cutting" that's usually associated with bodybuilding. I've never really heard it apply to cycling. I've always thought it to imply fairly unhealthy short term weight loss to prepare for competition.

Even most pro cyclists don't seem to be 'cut' like body builders are.

That's because they aren't on drugs.. or at least ones that mimic copious amounts of testosterone.

Single figure body fat % isn't natural whilst retaining muscle.

Even most pro cyclists don't seem to be 'cut' like body builders are.

How you get there aside, at that extreme I suspect it would be detrimental to performance. All a bodybuilder has to do is hold a pose for a few minutes, not ride a bike hard for a few hours for several days.

Have any of you read graeme obree's training manual?

It's really rather good, plus his ways are quite affordable as they don't rely on expensive gadgets.

No but I'm really interested to read it.

Interestingly when doing zone 2 work I generally don't use a hr monitor, I just breath through my nose and if I have to start breathing through my mouth I back off.

I'll have a look at this.

I've read a few of Joe Friel's books but not read any wider than that.

Thanks

I suspect "cut" to a cyclist would mean emptying as much out of the skin bag as possible so you don't have to lug it about.

Cut for a body builder (not weight lifter, my mistake) is to show off the structure of the muscles. i.e. make the skin, erm, skin tight 😕 😐

And most of the pros will only dip into single figures for big events or at the end of long events, it's bloody hard to keep up the required food intake for 2 or 3 weeks. And it's hard/not very pleasant trying to maintain single digits.

It's certainly not something i'd want to do again, not without a proper diet plan and some slightly more accurate way of measuring what work i'd done and what food i was eating. (no powermeters when i was racing, and very little nutritional help from many teams, just a matter of shoveling as much food down your neck as possible, or not if you thought you weren't climbing well. 😕 )

Ultimately what will determine if 5 W/kg is attainable is your physiology/genetics. Training will enable you to reach your physiological limit but it can't change that limit. Your limit may be 280W or 350W or 400W. If you're reasonably well trained already, i.e. riding regularly, but perhaps not in a structured way, you can expect some fairly modest gains.

Here are some old numbers from Alex Welburn (Torq MTB rider) for context to what you are aiming for:

5 sec 1094 17.2 w/kg
1min 662 10.42 w/kg
5min 430 6.7 w/kg
20min 345 5.4 w/kg
FTP (calculated from 20) 328 5.17w/kg

If you can hit 5w/ks and have skillz then you should try your hand at the Nationals

Here are some old numbers from Alex Welburn (Torq MTB rider) for context to what you are aiming for:

Interesting numbers that show different ways to go about it. That 5.17 w/kg probably would make him pretty decent but not great at a flat time trial, but puts him into the nationals in XC at 63.4kg. If you just want a high w/kg then you can get higher numbers by sacrificing a few kg for a few watts, and that might you quicker or slower, it depends on your chosen discipline (I've been 5kg lighter than I am now and, it'd be hideous but I could probably lose that and not lose too many watts, I'd be quicker at XC but it'd probably make me slower at time trials.)

And I expect with the shorter effort max, Alex would have much greater ability than average to put out repeated efforts at a high percentage of his max and be able to recover well still riding near his threshold.

Yes - XC is about repeated 1-2 min efforts in much of the country.

That guy's 1m power is pretty high.

Following this thread with interest! Good luck OP 🙂

I am too, simply 'cos it's simply nice to see someone chasing a goal.

Best of luck to you.

My goal is 4.5.

Here are some old numbers from Alex Welburn (Torq MTB rider) for context to what you are aiming for:

5 sec 1094 17.2 w/kg
1min 662 10.42 w/kg
5min 430 6.7 w/kg
20min 345 5.4 w/kg
FTP (calculated from 20) 328 5.17w/kg

If you can hit 5w/ks and have skillz then you should try your hand at the Nationals

Those are quite old numbers 😉 Just saying and lighter without loosing muscle, my current threshold is around 5.5/5.6 W/kg, I also don't want to hi-jack the thread with the physiology of XC. If anyone has questions just send us over a tweet etc
[url= https://twitter.com/Alex_Welburn ]@Alex_Welburn [/url]

Burn...!

Lighter without losing muscle. Thanks Alex, that was my plan.

Anyone following this my first proper ftp benchmark is going to have to wait a week or two. The cold I had has turned into a chest infection.

How are you going to measure your FTP OP, Tools wise, and 20 mins, or 1 hour?

New numbers are impressive indeed! I can't get on to weightweenies quickly to [s]stalk[/s] check when the old numbers were from but I can guess you weren't slow then either Alex 🙂

I have wondered for a while if this kind of Project is something which could showcase the likes of Torq- ie how far can you take an average Fred with the right knowledge an an above average focus on riding from the participant. Bit risky perhaps from the coaching side and requires a lot from the participant but would be interesting nonetheless 🙂

Those are quite old numbers Just saying and lighter without loosing muscle, my current threshold is around 5.5/5.6 W/kg, I also don't want to hi-jack the thread with the physiology of XC

It would probably make a fascinating thread in its own right if you had the time 😉

Torq coaches average joes all the time.

Not usually with a target like that in mind.
It's usually "to get better". Unless they are already elite level, then it'll be 5.5, 6 W/kilo etc.

Going from Fred to 5 is a whole different kettle of fish.

5 to Fred is fun though. 😆

New numbers are impressive indeed! I can't get on to weightweenies quickly to stalk check when the old numbers were from but I can guess you weren't slow then either Alex

I have wondered for a while if this kind of Project is something which could showcase the likes of Torq- ie how far can you take an average Fred with the right knowledge an an above average focus on riding from the participant. Bit risky perhaps from the coaching side and requires a lot from the participant but would be interesting nonetheless

I will say that especially in MTB racing, numbers are just a small part of it, take for example your 5 minute max power, one may have a large one, but If they can not be repeated near it, then its not all that useful in racing, ie take the national course this weekend at Dalby and the main climb, you need to be able to get up it fast 6/7 times not just once.

The best measure of performance is performance it'self.

And there is a mixture of other factors, which is why XC Physiology really interests me.

It terms of seeing how your average fred would go, It would be much safer in the labs, can do a genetic screening as this will determine certain aspects, ACTN3 gene for example has a large amount of literature on it. normal performance testing would give a degree of what they are/would be capable off.

I will say that especially in MTB racing, numbers are just a small part of it, take for example your 5 minute max power, one may have a large one, but If they can not be repeated near it, then its not all that useful in racing, ie take the national course this weekend at Dalby and the main climb, you need to be able to get up it fast 6/7 times not just once.

The best measure of performance is performance it'self.

And there is a mixture of other factors, which is why XC Physiology really interests me.

It terms of seeing how your average fred would go, It would be much safer in the labs, can do a genetic screening as this will determine certain aspects, ACTN3 gene for example has a large amount of literature on it. normal performance testing would give a degree of what they are/would be capable off.

Happy to turn up to a Lab and have someone tell me if this is theoretically possible.. would be very interested to know?

Torq coaches average joes all the time

Guilty.

My journey over 3 years with them is slightly complicated by the fact that I was more interested in my 12hr+ power for the first 2 years (3w/kg)

Good luck, I’ll be watching with interest as this is something I’ve been debating with myself lately. I’m not aiming for anything this high because I simply don’t have the hours spare, but what hours I have I ensure I make the most of them. For this very reason I use the Carmichael Time Crunched training plans and they work well for me.

Over the past year I’ve been able to up my power output but I’m struggling to lower the weight; but part of the later is my inability to give up beer completely (have reduced) and not willing to diet, just eating healthy meals made from scratch, no processed meals, and I am now actively reducing portion sizes. Current target is to lose 4kgs (5%) weight, a very realistic goal for me.

For me it’s all a life balance, I [i]want [/i]to race like a pro but with work, family, house, etc, being a pro isn’t ever going to be real 😆

just eating healthy meals made from scratch, no processed meals, and I am now actively reducing portion sizes

If you are doing this then look at reducing GI of your meals.

For me it’s all a life balance, I want to race like a pro but with work, family, house, etc, being a pro isn’t ever going to be real

Going from Fred to 5 is a whole different kettle of fish.

This was more what I was getting at when I said it would be interesting to see how far an average Fred could go with a smart, solid effort but not an all consuming, unsustainable effort. I guess, how far can the right knowledge, being smart and being consistent in your riding take someone? Or kind of linked, can a bang average person realistically, physiologically reach the goal of the OP?

I guess the most successful way to meet the OP's goal and enjoy life is start at 6.6w/kg and then start having a life 🙂

Anyway OP, I reckon if you did want to make decent progress then the like of Torq coaching and testing would be crucial as it would be an even more monumental task by yourself

Cut for a body builder (not weight lifter, my mistake) is to show off the structure of the muscles. i.e. make the skin, erm, skin tight

When he was cutting he said he used to carry a couple of emergency biscuits with him when he went out anywhere (and tried to avoid doing so at all) - every now & then he'd "bonk" just walking down the road 😯

(course, all the insulin & shit he was using during training prob didn't help)

So first check in. My weight has levelled out at 81kg nicely and I'm hoping to have that reading 70something very soon.

Just did my first ftp test using trainer road software (highly recommend this, it's really good)...

Managed 303watts for the first 8 minute block and 306 watts average for the second 8 minute block. Adjusted 1 hour calculation according to trainer road is 273 watts.

I've got a long way to get to 5w/kg... I'm setting an interim goal for next year of raising this to 300 watts and getting down to 75kg short term attainable targets are always a good thing in my eperience.

P.s. I nearly drowned in sweat!

Be interested to see how far you get. For reference, i'm 81kg & 187cm, so about 4 inches taller than you.

I've done a few FTP tests, and allowing for learning to do them better, last one I did I put out 347w (adjusted) but I think Zwift over-reads by about 5-7%.

So, real world I think thats somewhere between 320-330w. I went up from around 265 from the first test I did, butI was clueless on pacing etc so lost some there. Real world I guess i've gained somewhere between 40-50w in about a 2 year period. Lost a little bit of weight, maybe 4kg all in, but my 'training' and diet are unstructured at best. I ride my bike as much as I can, just do random sprints every now & then which is commuting & MTB at weekends. I race DH and enduro during the season & in the winter my bike lives on the turbo & I do a bit of Zwift 3 times a week.

I'd love to have bigger numbers, but in reality, I find training boring, I like food & beer & have to remember I ride bikes for fun. For amusement I do the odd XC race & get smoked by most people - it's very apparent that while my numbers arn't bad, there are a lot more serious people out there & my riding is the polar opposite of an XC format. I do have a good sprint on me though!

I might try some CX this winter rather than living on a turbo - it's got to be more interesting.

Good luck - I don't expect it t be anything other than brutal.

One month in... how are you getting on?

So one month in. I'm down to 80.5kg (start of project I was about 85/6) and haven't done an ftp test since my first one just after my initial post.

Nothing in terms of power figures to report having not retested yet..

However I did ride with a group on Tuesday night and was first up every single climb, by a fair margin. That's never been the case and there was a couple of guys out I've always looked at and seen them as quicker on the climbs than me by some margin.

There's one sprint climb where I've always pushed myself. Taken my time on on it from 1min25 to 1min05 so I'm definitely making improvements.

I also went for a mtb ride last week and got a load of strava segment top 10s without even knowing where the segments were, got 2nd spot on one with 575 people on the board.

Anecdotal evidence of improvement starting to show is what I guess I'm saying.

Next ftp test in a fortnight. I'm hoping for a 10w improvement with the work I've put in.

Oh and people are starting to notice I've lost weight and my shirts look like tents on me already.

There's one sprint climb where I've always pushed myself. Taken my time on on it from 1min25 to 1min05 so I'm definitely making improvements.

There's certainly some psychological advantage there, no way have you miraculously found 30% savings by dropping a few kilos! Still, all counts, good effort. I really ought to try harder to lose some weight 😕

(5kg)...nearly a stone. Possibly, although it's a climb where I hit max hr and hold it to the top so not really sure how it can be psychological.

Just doubled checked and it's 1min22 to 1min05 (I'd rounded it in my head).

That's 17 second from initial 82 17/82 times 100 is 20.7% improvement

... if I've dropped 10% bodyweight (slight over estimate) and gained 10% power (1 min not ftp) then (X/0.9)x1.1 is about 1.2 so a 20% increase in short punchy climbing speed, numbers aren't a mile off.

I've been doing structured trainer road sessions and I can feel my power output is higher as holding different wattage on the turbo is noticeably easier.

I personally think it is my 1 minute power has risen along with the weight loss as I always thrash everything I've got out of myself on that climb.