I decided a while back that this would be a good addition to my CV. I am nearly at the end of studying for the foundation and will continue onto practitioner after.

I am sure there will be some qualified peeps on here or people who work in this environment. I would be interested to hear some real world thoughts on it. Is it overly complex? Is it a nightmare to work with? How does it differ in the world compared to the theory etc. If you completed the training, how did it change the way you worked?

I would be looking to transfer over to APM these days instead of Prince. The qualifications have always been very similar (hence being able to switch between) but APM now has the Royal Charter. So if being a chartered PM is of interest then that’s the place to go

Yeah, or drop it and take up Agile…

But that’s dependant on your current workplace environment or future aspirations.

Better off always going Chartered as mentioned ^^

Ditto to the above. Real world opinion, having spoken to many colleagues involved with training & development they are seeing a marked shift, certainly within the public sector, from Prince2 to Agile. Flavour of the week maybe, but it seems that Prince2 might have had its time in the spotlight for the moment.

Prince2 Practioner here. SCRUM Master too.

Only do agile here these days, but PRINCE always used to be useful for Gov, Military etc. so it might be applicable in your industry still.

EDIT: Answering the questions in a general way – no it’s not a nightmare, its a framework so in theory everyone knows where they stand and what to refer too. frustration can be that even when its agreed it doesn’t always happen (people!). The constructs make sense and are good reference material for post project if done well.

Does it make a difference that I work in IT? I was under the impression that Prince2 was still very prominent in this area (along with Agile)

Depends who you are PM’ing IT for. I’m in IT in Life Sciences, and it’s Agile of one form or other in my part of it at least

Would I be right in thinking Agile is used more in software development side of IT?

I work for a large IT services company, a lot of the PMs are Prince2 qualified but I never see any evidence of it being used (the company has it’s own PM framework anyhow). There’s lots of training going on relating to Agile (inc. for use on government projects) and seems there’s a shortage of Scrum Masters in the company so would def go down that route if I were you.

That said Agile needs the client to buy into it (and participate), we’re seeing clients demand it (I guess as it’s the flavour of the month) but then not want to engage in the process so fairly pointless if you end up PMing one of those projects…

Prince2 Practitioner and Agile here. Find many older / larger co’s look for Prince2 as a stamp of approval but don’t actually use it internally. At same time still many out there who still think agile means quick.

Depending on who is paying / how much time you have I’d consider doing both or do a little more research into how target co’s you want to work at are run. Many skills are interchangeable, as above they are all just frameworks to ultimately achieve a similar goal – I find having the Prince / APM background helps with agile projects when I’m ultimately footing the bill. For me experience and broad understanding counts way more than any certification.

I’m a Prince2 practitioner.  We use it for our day to day PM requirements.

Its pretty straight forward and works well for our requirements (medium sized company with mechanical and electrical design).  We use Project In A Box for our software requirements.

As it can be tailored then it works well and can be manipulated to the size of your project.

Its pretty straight forward and works well for our requirements (medium sized company with mechanical and electrical design). We use Project In A Box for our software requirements.

This is interesting. Would you say most companies using a formal framework run inside of a software package? At the moment all the documentation requirements and trigger points for those management products seem a bit daunting. I guess software packages take care of a lot of that right?

I work for a large IT services company, a lot of the PMs are Prince2 qualified but I never see any evidence of it being used (the company has it’s own PM framework anyhow).

This is what I was suspecting…. it seems it requires knowledge of the framework at all levels and a strict implementation of it.

PRINCE2 is good when fully (or close to) implemented but most orgs I’ve worked with pick and choose the bits that fit into their existing approach. It shouldn’t and doesn’t work like that.

I’d agree with the first posters that APM is the better route these days for a full time PM.

In IT I’ve only seen Agile (or no formal approach) lately.

PRINCE2 is good when fully (or close to) implemented but most orgs I’ve worked with pick and choose the bits that fit into their existing approach. It shouldn’t and doesn’t work like that.

But isn’t that a principle of Prince2, tailoring?

Prince2 can be a bit unwieldy in a faster moving environment and fewer companies seem to use it as the framework of choice. In my opinion, Agile is a much better option.

Its been good for my CV, but not really made a difference to how I do stuff.

But that might be why I am so bad at it…..

Its been good for my CV, but not really made a difference to how I do stuff.
But that might be why I am so bad at it…..

Haha, love your honesty. That’s really why I started doing it, my cv is lacking in recent personal development and I though it would be a good notch on my belt, but I quite like it and may attempt to shift my career sideways into full time PM however I think landing that first job will require more than a little luck.

But isn’t that a principle of Prince2, tailoring?

I wouldn’t say so. You tailor within the framework based on complexity, risk, cost e.g. by combining roles or reducing doc detail etc.

Many (most?) places pick a doc and say we need one of those but might not follow the governance etc

E.g. create a work breakdown structure but don’t implement appropriate change control

APM – Agile Project Manager? Isn’t that a contradiction in terms?

it’s a government relic that hasn’t moved to keep up with how we do things has changed.

There has been a shift for some time to different ways of working and that has gained momentum.

I recently did the Prince 2 Agile course (I already have Prince 2 practitioner), which was a bastardisation of the two but also a thinly veiled attempt to jump on the agile bandwagon, but I was unconvinced, they are wholly incompatible as approaches.

In my own experience for Prince to work the PM would need to expend far too much time and energy educating everyone and holding them to the processes. Without a very strong PMO or mature and enforced governance process built properly on prince 2 then prince will not work.

My understanding is (slightly tongue-in-cheek as I’m a Tech Architect not a PM :p ) :

Prince2 = plan everything in meticulous detail before the project starts and spend a huge amount of time either trying get the actual project to keep in line with the plan or updating the plan itself.

Agile = wing it (but with the benefit if the customer keeps changing requirements it puts more of the onus back on them as you end up with more sprints).

This understanding may either just be my cynical nature or not really understanding PM…

Probably not a million miles from the truth.

In my experience, Prince2 sounds like a good option until the overhead change control and rewriting project plans to accommodate scope change etc rear their collective heads.

From a software developer viewpoint. Agile seems to be the favour of the month however like most of the other PM systems I have seen used in the past it tends to be a bastardised version bearing little or no resemblance to the theoretical approach.

Agile doesn’t replace PRINCE2, it’s a different approach to two different situations. For an IT perspective, a delivery may follow the PRINCE 2 Framework, specifically around the governance aspects of controlling the project, however some of the deliverables may be developed using an Agile approach.

For instance, I’m managing a large Cloud Delivery, we follow a PRINCE 2 framework, but the  application developers are Agile. The application development sits nicely within this approach.

Within Agile, this works best when the PM role is removed. Certainly for larger projects my experience has been that removing myself from the scrum, allowing scrum masters to work on technical “unblocking” of issues is best when I’m not “micro managing”, also empowers the scrum master to take ownership of their roles without me ending up owning all of the actions. It takes trust from all parties initially, but it does work.

My role as a PM allows me to focus on governance, finance, resources and integration of products into a plan (tracking dependencies etc) without having to be 100% involved in each work packet or product delivery.

So in Agile terms, the similar roles are scrum master and Delivery Manager. If you want to remain involved in technical aspects of a delivery I’d go more down the Agile path, less technical and more process related, then APM or Prince.

APM – Agile Project Manager? Isn’t that a contradiction in terms?

Association for Project Management. Nothing to do with Agile

Prince 2 and msp practitioner because they paid me to do it. Since then i have avoided any role that means I have to use them which has served me well, but I can talk with those that do and can recognise when I’m being fobbed off as an sro.

PRINCE2 is good when fully (or close to) implemented but most orgs I’ve worked with pick and choose the bits that fit into their existing approach. It shouldn’t and doesn’t work like that.

You missed the whole scalable and appropriate part of implementing it…?

I’ve implemented multiple project, programme and portfolio frameworks in the last 2 decades.  You implement what will add value and reduce risk and be internally consistent.

So, my input for what it’s worth…

1). If you simply want to learn about controlled delivery of projects – Prince 2

2). Looking to establish and evidence your capability  as a PM – APM

3). Want to improve project/product delivery, look at many including various agile, lean etc. and then create a delivery framework that is aligned specifically to your needs

yes my arena though I did prince2 quite some time ago….I also have msp, p3o, mor, mop from the axelos family and CAM, CSPO and SAFe.  (as well as some architecture , technical and investment qualifications)

they are all useful and I’ve picked up lots of tips From the courses, as well as meeting others and learning about their companies.

how much you get from P2 depends on your level and experience.  I find it scary when you hear of people calling themselves PMs who don’t even know what a PID is.  If you are a professional, whatever methodology you follow as a PM you should write and agree your project contract with your senior stakeholder….and discuss it regularly.  Maybe if you are in an anti P2 org call it something different but the principle remains.  similar with risk management.  There are loads of useful transgerable things to learn.  Just learn the principles (and some helpful templates) and tailor them to the problem in front of you.  Anyone who gets hung up on one methodology vs another kind of misses the point.  it’s like arguing what is the best tool in your tool box.  it depends on the job.  sure we all have a favourite doesn’t mean it’ll work for everything.

I’d say if you are fairly new to pming P2 will be useful.

As for the questions, not P2 specifically but axelos you need to learn the syllabus answer even if your experience isn’t quite the same.  Getting the right terminology is important to passing even if it is largely pointless in the real world of pming.

Good luck

CSM auto correct.

^^ As he said!

Some good advice on here.

My missive wasn’t meant as a missive or a retraction from your choice, just I have my own thoughts so I’ll met them out.

I’m a Programme Manager, at any one time I run multiple projects or streams of work. I come from a Regulatory Change Banking sector background (but recently moved into the Commercial sector) and run big Transformation programmes, be that IT or Organisational. Recent lens in my industry has been large IT programmes, replacing manual for integrated IT solutions.

So I take on PM’s, DBA’s, BA’s, SolArc’s,Devs, SolDes’s and so on…

When I look for candidates I want to see some formal qualifications in Project Management, I don’t care if it’s Agile or Prince2. I prefer Prince2 because there is a logical step based process that can be defined and understood by even the most simplistic Stakeholder. Even the IT Stakeholder understands P2, because it does have a ground base of understanding across many sectors.

Agile and SDLC aren’t buzz words any more to pop in the CV. You need to show some understanding of Sprints, methodology, exceptions management and review process.

I’ve taken on some guys who proclaim to be Agile, when in all honesty they simply splatter approach the programme without logical steps and cause lack of progress management. Yes, yes they have achieved the goal or delivered the project but taking this approach doesn’t transform well into meetings where Stakeholders want to understand in what phase or status the project is in.

IME P2 practitioners are methodical, are able to apply structured experience in an Agile environment and place onus on sequence reporting. Agile practitioners tend to be less well organised, unable to plan a sequence of events to form projects and able to move quickly creating Sprints to suit gaps in workflow.

IME if you are heavily into SDLC based projects, Agile is worth putting the time and effort into. Purely for the reason that big IT organisations are training employees in this environment and a lot of the development for IT is being carried out in India or Eastern Europe. And the world is only going one way, that’s IT.

If you mix IT and Operational Change then I’d stick to Prince 2 and apply some Agile approach to your studies.

IMO

Thanks DT78, useful insight. And thanks to everyone else for the replies.

This is my last effort to save my career! I have been in a technical IT role for 20 years and progressed upto management level but have gotten stuck at that level and in a company where there are no prospects for advancement and very little to keep me interested. On top of that I live in a area where jobs are scarce at this level. The last 5 years I have had no investment from my employers in training and my technical skills are suffering as a result.

I have managed (informally) lots of small to medium sized projects over recent years, so I am hoping that P2 on my cv will open a few more doors. In fact since adding it to my cv as “ongoing training” I am already getting approached by recruiters for these types of roles.

I feel that even if it is becoming less relevant, P2 will be a good base to continue to learn other methodologies. Anyway, foundation exam coming up soon, and then onto practitioner.

Next question….

Any tips on getting a job? I would love to run a project or two with my current employer for experience and to give me something to reference in interviews, but they don’t follow any recognised framework so that would be difficult or impossible.

Will potential employers want to now that you have managed under the framework before? Or is there a chance some will be happy that you have the certification?

You missed the whole scalable and appropriate part of implementing it…?

No, I already covered it. You can’t discard whole aspects of the framework under the pretence of scalability and expect it to work.

Will potential employers want to now that you have managed under the framework before? Or is there a chance some will be happy that you have the certification?

IMO, YMMV..

I would like to see some responsibility level and ownership. P2 is the framework yes, but you can not stick rigidly to that when all around the organisation is moving along at different pace and levels of Implimentation.

I would like to see issues you’ve faced, how you’ve tackled them, your failings and what you’ve learned from them. I didn’t care about failings in the negative sense, what I seek is how you managed a PTG scenario when it’s already hitting Amber and you’ve been bounced back to Red.. what is the root casue, what the issue was, why did it deviate and how did you pull it back on track.

The next point I would look at is the delivery aspect. Timeline, workstreams, process management, Stakeholder management and Developer management. Barking orders from trees is archaic and gets no-one anywhere, so I like to see determination for delivery and ownership. Also what would escalation process look like? Do you detail it and panic, do you HL it and gloss over salient points? Critical decisions need clear thought and when under pressure its people like me who rely upon for support and delivery.

Another point, if P2 takes you into the PMO mould then I wouldn’t really call on your experience. Groups tend to have a PMO level governance, I don’t want another. I want someone who isn’t too proud to ask for help, isn’t frightened by asking people to undertake tasks and own them (at what ever level) track and monitor under the governance framework, but is more flexiable as to changes in environment and structure.

Rarely does one day equal another, and rigidity in application doesn’t tend to fit well.

I’m more than happy to take people on face value, I do always seek qualification but if the candidate is in thier late 40’s and has run a number of projects simultaneously then I’d look at experience over qualifications.. I would however task them to produce a HL plan and monitor plan just to make sure it’s methodical and fits with a P2/Agile governance.. I just want confidence that if I put you on something, you can manage it.

If that helps, then great.

I wish you well.

Thanks bikebouy, so reading between the lines then yes you want someone to already have experience and at a fairly high level. I think this will be my sticking point. The company I work for (although a fairly large global one) do not run big projects, and the ones they do run would be unlikely I would be part of it. I think I will need to look at junior roles, but that means taking a fairly big pay cut…..   I have always known that this would be the hard part. Qualifications are easy to get, experience and a foot through the door, well that’s a lot tougher.

Any tips on getting a job?

Initially be honest, people interviewing you should be able to tell if you have done what you say you’ve done. If you experienced something first hand you will have learnt things and relating those should be easy.

With a project it’s not about what your position was, but what did you actually do, what did you influence and change, what did you add to make a success of it?

I work in low level IT management, I do a reasonable amount of experience interviewing and recruited a number of my peers with varying levels of experience. I value knowledge and attitude above experience in many cases, but I also value what people learnt from their experiences.

If local jobs at the right level are hard to come by, then what are you going to do to make your CV stand out from others, can you look further afield? What other options are there?

Personally I’m about to take a reasonable paycut to switch my commute from near enough 2 hours each way by foot, car and train, back to 8 miles each way by bike, I can’t wait!

so reading between the lines then yes you want someone to already have experience and at a fairly high level

No, not at all. I’m more than happy to put a newby on a project and mentor.. More than happy with that. Some projects are small enough that you can put someone on relatively inexperienced and provided they have the methodology leave them to it, stamp their personality on it so to speak. P2 or Agile in this scenario is irrelevant, the underlying methodology has touch points, so either Quali will suffice. In my previous role I’d have intake of 23 Grads on Ave who at one level or another are/were undertaking professional qualifications as well as working. Most were keen on taking ownership of a project so it was easy to filter those one way, the others I’d employ doing other tasks..and so on. So I’ve always looked at the candidate quality criteria first and foremost.

HL appointments require a different set of skills, P2 and Agile have their management capabilities built into the qualification but that doesn’t make up for the lack thereof of confidence. The workplace in IT is (and always has been IME) fast paced, practically not well thought out, implemented without due consideration or impacts on other business functions.. So in this scenario I’d seek someone who has that level of experience who can push back and steer complex and often tight and quick decisions. Thats just workplace experience though, and I’m pretty sure at your level you’ve encountered a lot of that.

Do not be scared of applying for roles that you feel are too HL for you, the underlying methodology will capture at least 50% of the control mechanism. The experience you have can be upscaled, it might lead you into scenarios of conflict but that is normal at whatever level.

Confidence, I think P2 or Agile will bring along 50% of the confidence that you can at least manage a project.. the mitigation maybe more personality based, speaking with confidence in front of stakeholders who have other agendas (or just want to get out of the boring meeting at lunchtime) can be tricky to manage at any level.

I would advise against a step down in responsibility. If your CV dropped on my desk I would ask the question why you chose that route, what were the implications for your overall aptitude and attainment goals, how the step down affected your performance and confidence. I have no problem at all with candidates taking time out of the workplace for a couple of years either. If in this scenario I would ask of the candidate topics such that lead me to understand what you’ve been doing towards the workplace environment, current trends in PM or Regulations that could affect your role and such.. nothing too onerous but questions that would make be understand that you’ve kept upto speed on trends in your field of expertise and so on.

I have to admit this… I find rigid PMO candidates hard to manage, thats just my experience but inflexibility I find constrictive. Hence my views on Agile based working environments.

Proper PMO governance is a must in any industry IMO, but the inability to multi channel tasks and streams and delivery stages is restrictive.

HTH’s

No, I already covered it. You can’t discard whole aspects of the framework under the pretence of scalability and expect it to work.

I read your post differently – but that’s the joy of communicating on a forum where it’s relatively context-poor.

We’d probably find we’d agree more in a fuller discussion.