rather than an objective reflection on what the bible actually says. In some cases quite strong opinions can be expressed by those who haven’t actually ever read it which doesn’t seem a particularly objective or rational approach.

‘Objectively’ what would be your opinion of say leviticus as the word of god?

For atheists, Richard Dawkins is their prophet and The God Delusion is their Bible.

Discuss.

That old hoary chestnut. Richard Dawkins is just vocal and his opinions are his own. Whether I agree with them or not is a moot point; he doesn’t speak for me. You’re attempting to lump everyone together under a target that can be attacked in order to smear everyone with similar beliefs, usually used as a last-ditch attempt to move the focus away.

The God Delusion is a book. Just a book. Same as the bible is a book. Just a book. Get over yourself!

I think a lot of the time opinions about Christianity are actually quite subjective and more to do with negative personal experiences of the church or harsh, poe-faced, ‘Christians’ rather than an objective reflection on what the bible actually says. In some cases quite strong opinions can be expressed by those who haven’t actually ever read it which doesn’t seem a particularly objective or rational approach.

I know two CofE vicars called David. One believes the entire Bible to be literally true, the other that all of it is allegorical and must be interpreted within the historical context in which it was written.

Both are very clever men, both are ordained ministers in the CofE.

I’m not sure that my reading the Bible cover to cover would enable me to interpret it any better than David or David.

There’s certainly some interesting debate going on around the Dawkins hypothesis with some responses being published. Here’s one example…

For atheists, Richard Dawkins is their prophet and The God Delusion is their Bible.

Discuss.

No becasuse I will be labled an illberal ranting atheist.

Dawkins has some good points and has allowed people to stand up as atheists (not easy belive me!) and make people question things. Questioning stuff is what makes humans great.

SSP

You’re attempting to lump everyone together under a target that can be attacked in order to smear everyone with similar beliefs

I was actually only making a joke, but I like your point. It could be said that many people on here are doing exactly that about Christians…

Dawkins has some good points and has allowed people to stand up as atheists (not easy belive me!)

Is it hard to be an atheist? I would be very comfortable announcing that I was an atheist pretty much anywhere (apart from it not really being true). I would find it much harder to state that I was a Christian.

SSP – “Close-minded, illiberal, ranting atheist” was not aimed at you, or at atheists in general, just the close-minded, illiberal and ranting ones. I dislike close-minded, ranting and illiberal theists with same.

As far as I am concerned, there are decent, sensible, humane people, some believers, some not. Then there are dogmatic, pompous blinkered people, some believers, some not.

I couldn’t give a monkeys what gods someone does or doesn’t believe in. I believe in none, some of my favourite people believe in one or several. That doesn’t make them idiots, or evil. We just have part of who we are wired rather differently.

🙂

[/quote]‘Objectively’ what would be your opinion of say leviticus as the word of god?

I think I understand what you’re implying in that it’s not possible to have a purely objective approach. I guess the same applies to science which involves observation as well as interpretation. As for leviticus I guess one interpretaion would be that it points to some of the consistent themes of the bible i.e. that God is holy, that sin has disrupted our relationship with him and that the solution to mending that disruption lies in the sacrificial death of an innocent substitute. Then again it could just be a record of the gruesome obsession of a primitive people with how to dig a poo hole, mildew, skin disease and the fat of kidneys!

I’m not a troll, although I can see why it looks like I am. I’m not one to post in forums much, but I am a genuine MTB enthusiast. But despite me generally not having a lot to say I did feel I had to jump in on this topic for obvious reasons.

As for the comment on Noah and the ark, don’t forget that Noah spent many years warning about the coming judgement and the ark door was open to anyone… but people just laughed. It’s hard to imagine exactly how things were at the time but the bible is clear that people were desperately wicked, I believe the world was heading in such a bad way that they would have wiped themselves out if they were left to themselves anyway, the sin made God sick and no doubt it was awful. All sense of morality was lost.

As for the comment on natural disasters like the heat wave in Australia, this is a tough one I’ll admit. Christians don’t always have the answers, one thing for sure tho is that God does care and does help in situations like these and uses his people to help in all manner of natural disasters like these.

Samuri asked why so many ‘church goers’ ignore the teaching of the bible and act in a way that opposes the bibles teaching. All I can say is that not everyone under the name of Christian reads their bible, or follows the example Christ gave us. the bible warns that many people follow religion for their own gain, for social status, money etc. but the bible clearly demands a change of heart, a true heart and ‘pretenders’ have no place in the kingdom of heaven.

Beefy is right, true Christianity should be a real commitment, and should really change your life for the better.

By the way it’s great to see there are other Christian bikers out there! One reason I like biking so much is because you get to explore Gods awesome creation.

For atheists, Richard Dawkins is their prophet

what has he prophesised ? It seems to me atheism or pantheistic indifference is about taking responsibility for oneself without recourse to external authority. In such a context a prophet is no less relevant than a god

It does not really matter what people believe in, it should be a personal matter. School should be about teaching the idea of making decisions based on reason, fact and logic not from other peoples whims (Kings and people (Who at some point have ‘heard god’) or TV celebrities).

From the other thread on the MMR jab people need to do this even more now as people if left to their own devices are basically accepting (Stupid) of what people in a higher authority say.

There could be an argument though that we need some kind of Christian religious education as many of our common principles come from Christianity.

Simon, semantically, is Dawkins not a prophet because he has had a revelation of truth, rather than because he foretells the future?

I do not agree with the statement, but that is surely the thrust of it.

is Dawkins not a prophet because he has had a revelation of truth,

it appears ‘prophet’ has more meanings than I knew…

I suppose there may be some basic ‘truth’, but all we have is experience (or memory), sensation and speculation

Sorry, I meant “truth” rather than Truth. 😉

Quite what it means seems to vary a fair bit in nuance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophet

PhilAmon – I am speechless.

I do not agree with the statement, but that is surely the thrust of it.

’twas a joke.

You won’t go to heaven if you don’t believe in it.

Hell on the other hand is less fussy..

It’s not as bad as the enforcement of Green dogma that’s just caused the burning to death of over 300 people in Oz.

Er, could you explain that one to me please.

There could be an argument though that we need some kind of Christian religious education as many of our common principles come from Christianity.

Please explain what those principles are?
We interpret the bible today based on 21st century moral values not those of the 1st century. If we did we would still be murdering and torturing based on the whim of a malicious, jealous and capricious god.
The bible does not shape our morals and behaviour (or shouldnt!) if it did we would spend our time more concerned with coveting our neighbours Assess!(sp?)
Just as a 10 year old child today could explain to the most brilliant of scholars several centuries ago that the world is not flat, we should not be basing our lifes on a book that could have been written by a goatherd in the 1st century.

Whilst it is possible that their is a God it is highly unlikely.
Unfortunately believers have removed the later option from their thought processes with very little REASON by using a large dollop of faith (a belief in that which is known but cannot be proven) in the absence of any real evidence.
Whilst I have no real need to offend believers (and in the words of Bill Hicks forgive me) I struggle to understand why otherwise rational human beings can believe in such a MASSIVE theory with so little (objective or tangible)evidence to support it and quite a lot of evidence to counter it.
We are then expected to teach this to our children lest we be construed as intolerant.. now that is beyond belief.

As for the comment on natural disasters like the heat wave in Australia, this is a tough one I’ll admit. Christians don’t always have the answers, one thing for sure tho is that God does care and does help in situations like these and uses his people to help in all manner of natural disasters like these.

well I am sure that is comforting to those that died in the disaster.. what a truly loving God that is. Personally if he [sic not my assumption that God is a man]helped by say not letting disasters happen in the first place or say dropping the ocean on the fire or transporting people from harms way I would find that somewhat more persuasive than your reassurance {whilst also admitting you dont have the answer but then providing it anyway) that he[sic] does care and help.

Whilst it is possible that their is a God it is highly unlikely

how could we know ? There might be one god per atom. For the life of me I can’t think why it matters. Say there were some number of gods (you choose) – are you saying that you would behave differently as a result ? Isn’t this hypocritical ? Are we saying you will only do the right thing under threat of punishment or promise of reward ? For a fact any god that required worship would be despicable. To my mind heaven and hell (purely human creations I suspect) sound equally awful 🙁

Have a look at this place – i was quite scared by the website alone !

Home

Please explain what those principles are?
We interpret the bible today based on 21st century moral values not those of the 1st century. If we did we would still be murdering and torturing based on the whim of a malicious, jealous and capricious god.

Actually in the 1st century it was the Christians who were being tortured and fed to the lions as I recall. They were waiting for the world to end and had been saved so did not seem to mind. It was only after the people who wanted power got into the game that things went bad.

learnt the Christian parables when I was little and none of the sin stuff and basically they are about being kind to everyone even those who are different to you and thankful that you have a good life and to lead a simple life. I am in no way religious and prefer to think that what god is is the sum of all humanity but I would much rather my kids learnt Christian morals rather than the rubbish on TV which seems mostly concerned with making you consume things that you don’t need and celebrating thuggish footballers and generally stupid people.

I think you will find that most of our Justice and moral codes are based on Christian values and that has driven many ‘modern’ social reforms. The fact that our law system is conscientiously deliberated and restorative instead of fixed and arbitrary and punitive for example. These are Christian values.

Of course there are paradoxes such as one Christian group saying the slave trade was gods will and the other that it was the opposite.

think you will find that most of our Justice and moral codes are based on Christian values and that has driven many ‘modern’ social reforms. The fact that our law system is conscientiously deliberated and restorative instead of fixed and arbitrary and punitive for example. These are Christian values.

Especially all that tax break crap if your married cause being a married couple with kids is better than being loving parents…. really grips my shit that one.

Simon .. I would not behave differently if there was a God except for the fact I would no longer argue there is not one!!

Married Mans allowance (and Mortgage Releif MIRAS) was abolished in 2000.
AFAIK there are no benefits to being married.
There are no government benefits to being a loving family whether married or not.

The removal of married mans allowance and MIRAS means that both parents have to work in order to feed and house their families. This is being increased by the provision of child care from lower ages (3 years is it?)

IMO The breaking up of family life (married or otherwise) by financial policy has lead to the current increase in gang culture as there are no stable roll models available.

I think you will find that most of our Justice and moral codes are based on Christian values and that has driven many ‘modern’ social reforms. The fact that our law system is conscientiously deliberated and restorative instead of fixed and arbitrary and punitive for example. These are Christian values

There is nothing in use today that forms any of this that hasnt been derived during the intervening period. The Bible teaches us nothing that could not be written in the first century.

As Sam Harris states, it is an intellectual emergency when we consider that only 12% of the American population believe life came about through natural selection.
Whilst fairy stories may be harmless, when they determine international and national policy they are certainly not and millions die every year as a result of the West’s belief in an invisible God.
This should be taught in schools.

learnt the Christian parables when I was little and none of the sin stuff and basically they are about being kind to everyone even those who are different to you and thankful that you have a good life and to lead a simple life.

I agree that the principles behind many of the parables are sound and should be taught to children (and, indeed, many adults), I don’t think you need a god to back them up though.

FWIW, I, with my atheist tendencies, was most impressed at a christening service for a friend’s child by the vicar’s interpretation of the tale of the good samaritan. He looked at it in a couple of ways that I’d never though of, but, again, a god wasn’t necessary in that interpretation.

IMO The breaking up of family life (married or otherwise) by financial policy has lead to the current increase in gang culture as there are no stable roll models available.

Well if I cold be bothered I’d argue that your are wrong.

Well if I cold be bothered I’d argue that your are wrong.

Staggers back, dazed by the sheer brilliance of this retort. There is nothing more to say. God is dead.

😉

Well it would only go round in circles anyway we dont agree simple as that.

Many of the arguments expressed here are the regular set of tough philospophical conundrums such as ‘If God is good why does he allow suffering’. If you’re interested I’d recommend a look a Tim Keller’s website where there are some mp3 talks in which he tackles some of these issues –

http://www.thereasonforgod.com/

TL:DR
so ill leave you with my 2pnce

Atheists are as bad as Godbotherers, with thier dogmatic arguments,
My order of distain for “other religions” goes like this
1) Christians
2) Atheists
3) everyone else

If covered at all it should all be covered equally, including Atheism.

“Praying” in schools is often sold off as a “moment for personal reflection” and i have no problems with that. sitting with ones eyes shut dosent mean you have to be whinging to the giant Goat in the sky.

Im not an Atheist, I dont care, none of it affects me, its not a case of “if your not with us your against us”

im not sitting on the fence either, im miles away, possibly on my bike, got better things to do.

if i ever aquire a child, i wont enforce a religion, neither will i enforce atheism, i’ll point out and try and ensure they understand the options in an unbiased manner.

on a side line, i heard a woman, in sainsburies cafe, kicking off about her toddlers food (2 or 3yrs) with the words “he cant eat that, hes a vegitarian”
Made me suprisingly annoyed, ill bet he didnt choose to be a vegisexual.

the one question i always put to christians is: who get’s to heaven someone who ‘is a christian’ goes to church, says prayers, but does not live by the 10 commandments or me, an athiest who has strong moral convictions but denies god’s existence.

If there was a god i cannot understand why he doesn’t chose the good man over the bad beliver! They often answer the beliver, sins can be forgiven not believing can’t.

As an aside it’s christain week (or something) at uni this week. Some of the lectures sound very interesting. “has science disproved christianity?”

my thoughts: no it hasn’t disproved christianity but has disproved god.

As Sam Harris states, it is an intellectual emergency when we consider that only 12% of the American population believe life came about through natural selection.

why?
why does it matter what they think about the origins of life?
it dosent change anything, least of all to us, let them believe what they want.

also Tom, as may be covered in one of them there lectures, some scientists believe the have accidently proved god DOES exist,
something about, in the mathmatical equation that defines the univerese, there is one constant, a number, like Pi is a constant, that balances it all (think neo in the matrix)
except for the balance to work, they reckon the value has to be accurate to twelve trillion decimal places (give or take),

you could say, its improbable but possible, or you could take it as beign so improbable there must be a divine creator playing with his giant seesaw…

Atheists are as bad as Godbotherers

ya think ? I’ve given up atheism for a less dogmatic form, but it seems to me atheism is usually quite personal, and they don’t go around recruiting or burning people at stakes

i reckon they would burn a few of the more “extremeist” god botherers if it wasnt against what they believe/the law, and I think a 160~ post long thread may indicate they are more passionate about it than apathetic…?

not that im saying your wrong, just as i see it.

i shoudlnt have looked at this thread, im gonna get even less work done this afternoon.
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