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  • Possible can of worms – religion in schools
  • Premier Icon squeekybrakes
    Free Member

    I’m not sure that the assumption that those who embrace religion have abandonned their rational senses is necessarily right. Some would surely argue that there is plenty of evidence which leads them to a rational conclusion that there probably IS a God… I think there’s probably value in exploring this within an educational context.

    Premier Icon robdob
    Free Member

    SB, I agree. I am a Christian but I haven’t abandoned logical thinking. In fact, logic brought me to the point where I realized that giving my life to God was something I had to do, the best option. It wasn’t a decsion based on emotion or pursuasion but a simple reaction to facts that had been presented to me. I have a degree in Geography as well as loads of other academic stuidies but I believe in the bible. The two don’t clash to me.

    Don’t knock it till you tried it. 😀

    Premier Icon AdamW
    Free Member

    Show me proof God doesn’t exist.

    You prove to me why the Invisible Pink Unicorn and the Flying Spaghetti Monster don’t exist and let me know how you worked it out. I’ll most probably use the same argument…

    (hint: you cannot prove a negative)

    Why not?

    Why ‘why not’?

    Oh, so because an Atheist says so, that’s that, is it?

    Nah. You made the positive statment: “Why does the universe exist?”. It is for you to prove that there is a ‘why’. I’ll sit here with a nice book (Alexander McCall Smith at the mo). Tap me on the shoulder when you are ready.

    We had this a few weeks ago. Interestingly, like then, it’s the Atheists that are being the most vociferous. Like, somehow, that shouting louder is going to make them more right…

    Nah, it is the wheedly ones who think they have a privileged belief that can never be scrutinised and yet want to tell everyone else how to live based upon it…

    You trolling again RudeBoy?

    Premier Icon RudeBoy
    Free Member

    Not at all.

    I find some of the arguments for, and against, God, quite interesting. I have my own beliefs, and try to respect others. I don’t really think people suggesting that those who chose to follow a religion are in any way of lesser intelligence very constructive, tbh.

    For you, God does not exist. Fine. This does not mean God does not exist entirely, however; it is merely your belief.

    And if Atheists ‘know’ they are ‘right’, why do they seem as zealous at proving their conviction, as those they seek to discredit? Why not just ignore those who chose to believe in God?

    Who really knows? None of us.

    Is there Life in far distant Galaxies? Possibly.

    Is there a God?

    Maybe just too abstract a concept for the particularly logically minded to grasp…

    Premier Icon surfer
    Free Member

    Some would surely argue that there is plenty of evidence which leads them to a rational conclusion that there probably IS a God… I think there’s probably value in exploring this within an educational context.

    Who are these “some” can you name them? Can you or “them” identify a single piece of quantifiable evidence that would justify a single moment of our childrens finite school curriculum to its study.
    You flatter yourself that beleif in fairy stories has some measurable academic benefit.

    but a simple reaction to facts that had been presented to me

    What are these facts? Are you in possession of facts. I think you owe it to your fellow believers to show them the evidence they have craved for years.

    Premier Icon surfer
    Free Member

    For you, God does not exist. Fine. This does not mean God does not exist entirely, however; it is merely your belief.

    And if Atheists ‘know’ they are ‘right’, why do they seem as zealous at proving their conviction, as those they seek to discredit? Why not just ignore those who chose to believe in God?

    If god exists surely he exists for everyone and not just some?

    Atheists have become more outspoken recently given the rise in good works published by Harris, Hitchins, Dawkins et al. These authors amongst others have managed to focus the atheist position.
    Believers are always keen to preach “live and let live” however whilst your ideas are inoffensive to atheists, your beliefs ability to divert finite resources, dicate national and international policy and stifle life saving medical research is a danger to humanity.
    Atheists should make no apologies for being vocal in spite of you wanting them too keep quiet.
    Atheists provide life saving voluntary medical care without preaching dangerous untruths about contraception unlike their religous conterparts.

    Premier Icon miketually
    Full Member

    Can you or “them” identify a single piece of quantifiable evidence that would justify a single moment of our childrens finite school curriculum to its study.

    Could you identify a single piece of quantifiable evidence for the concepts of love or justice?

    Premier Icon Flaperon
    Free Member

    The main thing I have a problem with is the idea of worship.

    I don’t give a flying fish whether or not there is a god (I personally believe there isn’t), but the idea that something which was capable of catapulting the universe into existence is hard to comprehend. This should be discussed in schools.

    What’s harder to comprehend is that this thing expects us to bow down before it and mumble how wonderful we think it is. Does that not strike any of the religious people here as odd? That god is so insecure that he/she/it needs reminding that it is a god and that we’re still here?

    Premier Icon nickname
    Free Member

    I don’t think teaching R.E. does any harm. I didn’t to me, and I’m not religious.

    I was in my R.E. lessons about 15 years ago, and at the time, I’m pretty sure everyone in the class had made up their own mind on the matter. Most the kids just thought it was a doss anyway and didn’t really care. I don’t suspect that has changed 🙂

    I don’t know what they teach now though, do they put more emphasis on other religions?

    Anyway, like I said, it doesn’t do any harm, and is probably something I should have taken more seriously given the state of the world today. It’s a fairly interesting topic.

    Premier Icon IHN
    Full Member

    What’s harder to comprehend is that this thing expects us to bow down before it and mumble how wonderful we think it is. Does that not strike any of the religious people here as odd? That god is so insecure that he/she/it needs reminding that it is a god and that we’re still here?

    Exactly. I can’t believe that an all-loving, all-knowing, omnipotent, omnipresent God would need his ego polishing by some minor life forms on a minor planet in a minor galaxy

    Premier Icon mountaincarrot
    Free Member

    I’m pretty irritated that my child’s school is visited by the xxx (read town) “assembly team”. It serves no useful purpose.
    There are more Jedi Knights in the UK than there are Roman Catholics. haha..

    Premier Icon PhilAmon
    Free Member

    Hey, as a Christian myself I thought I’d chip in here… Why would we not want our Children to hear bible stories? the bible teaches so many positive things like treating other people as you want to be treated yourself, to respect one another and show kindness, values that we all appreciate. I know parents who send their children to sunday school despite not being believers themselves as they know the bible has a positive influence on them.

    As for the comments on worship, God doesn’t need His ego polishing, He created mankind for friendship, it was always His plan to create a world that He loved and who would Love him back. One of the greatest acts of kindness ever known was God coming to this earth and dying in our place that this friendship with God could be restored. “For God so loved the world that he gave His only Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life” John 3:16.

    Premier Icon beefy
    Full Member

    Blummin heck, this has got very serious.

    To all you non-believers, jedi’s, intellectuals, agnostics and every thing else, God really, really loves you.

    Sorry if this upsets you, or offends your beliefs, but He really loves you.

    I work in a high school and the daily act of worship is a mumbled prayer read from a book, this aint gonna win anyone for God so don’t worry about your kids, they are safe.

    I became a Christian out of a alchohol and bmx fueled lifestyle, He met me where I was, in a mess, forgave me and set me back on my feet, He has helped me on the way and walked with me through everything.

    I need no proof, or reason, just faith.

    I would rather trust the creation of the universe to something rather than nothing.

    Oh well, let the onslaught continue.

    Did I mention God loves you?

    Premier Icon beefy
    Full Member

    Ah, Philamon, you beat me to it!

    Premier Icon simonfbarnes
    Free Member

    Atheism is a belief in the same way that not collecting stamps is a hobby

    I may adopt this phrase and pretend it’s my own :o) Actually I’ve abandoned atheism to replace it with pantheistic indifference. It’s basically the same but less dogmatic…

    Premier Icon chewkw
    Free Member

    Crikey … I can’t read all the page now but will tomorrow if I have time.

    WTF! Leave religion at home.

    😯

    Premier Icon anagallis_arvensis
    Free Member

    Atheism is a belief in the same way that not collecting stamps is a hobby. It needs no teaching

    This is genius!!
    Also a daily act of worship surely cannot be the law as if it is either the schools I’ve worked at are breaking it or I really havent been concentrating on what goes on in assemblies.

    Premier Icon anagallis_arvensis
    Free Member

    I work in a high school and the daily act of worship is a mumbled prayer read from a book, this aint gonna win anyone for God so don’t worry about your kids, they are safe.

    But surely, and this is a confirmed atheist speaking, thats worse if its something you really believe in not being done properly? Its why I avoid churches as much as possible, I dont want to do someting in a half arsed manner as I see that as offensive to the religion and while the god or whatever doesnt exist the religion most certainly does. I hate going to weddings in churches for example.

    Premier Icon Spongebob
    Free Member

    In the Old Testament, the story of Noah, God was not happy with all creatures in the World. God instructed Noah to round up a breeding pair of each speccies. They were all loaded on to the big wooden boat and then God flooded the planet to kill every remaining living creature. Reasonable!

    Also in the old testament God was said to enjoy the smell of burning live animals. Seems offensive doesn’t it? The word tyrant comes to mind!

    What about the meting out of divine justice;

    Were all the poor people who perished in Australia bad? Surely God wouldn’t allow this because apparently, some people say he cares about us all!

    The only person to ever survive rabbies contracted the disease in a Roman Catholic church. A bat swooped several times on the congregation and was eventually knocked to the floor. The little girl wanted to help the stunned creature and kindly carried it outside whereupon it bit her. Why wasn’t God watching over her? The girl was just a child trying to be kind in helping one of his small traumatised creatures!

    There are billions of other cases of human suffering visited upon good decent people. God is supposed to be all seeing all knowing. Especially according to the mad evangelists that drain gullible people’s bank accounts across large swathes of the USA. What a load of tosh! There is nobody watching over you except your loved ones and friends.

    The claim by believers is that if you have faith in the existence of a God, he really must be real. Applying such logic would mean that the Tooth Fairy, Father Christmas are also real!

    Religion instills many good values. It is a tool of control. It passifies and comforts people. But what about those who dare to think freely, who choose to reject religious beliefs? In some parts of the world, such people are killed! Lucky we are allowed to think and speak freely in this country!

    Religion causes more conflict in the world than anything else due to it’s divisve nature. A better world would be one where people find what they have in commone, not what they don’t.

    Do we need religion to learn good morals and live a decent life? Of course we don’t!

    Premier Icon goon
    Free Member

    I may adopt this phrase and pretend it’s my own :o) Actually I’ve abandoned atheism to replace it with pantheistic indifference. It’s basically the same but less dogmatic…

    The only time I’ve ever agreed with SFB!

    beefy – Member

    Blummin heck, this has got very serious.

    To all you non-believers, jedi’s, intellectuals, agnostics and every thing else, God really, really loves you.

    Sorry if this upsets you, or offends your beliefs, but He really loves you.

    I work in a high school and the daily act of worship is a mumbled prayer read from a book, this aint gonna win anyone for God so don’t worry about your kids, they are safe.

    I became a Christian out of a alchohol and bmx fueled lifestyle, He met me where I was, in a mess, forgave me and set me back on my feet, He has helped me on the way and walked with me through everything.

    I need no proof, or reason, just faith.

    I would rather trust the creation of the universe to something rather than nothing.

    Oh well, let the onslaught continue.

    Did I mention God loves you?

    This post makes me feel like weeping for every life lead in scientific pursuit, for the enlightenment of ordinary people.

    I mean, FFS…

    Premier Icon RudeBoy
    Free Member

    Atheists should make no apologies for being vocal in spite of you wanting them too keep quiet.

    Where, tell me, did I say I wanted Atheists to keep quiet???

    I just don’t think Atheists have points, views or opinions that are any more or less valid than religious people. All seem to think that their views and opinions are more righteous than anyone else, who can really say who is right or wrong?

    Premier Icon goon
    Free Member

    All seem to think that their views and opinions are more righteous than anyone else, who can really say who is right or wrong?

    Would you like to be tried for a crime on that basis? Or have evidence, argument and counter-argument presented until a logical conclusion was reached?

    Premier Icon RudeBoy
    Free Member

    Too late, too tired, can’t be bothered, tbh.

    Night!

    And God Bless…

    X

    Premier Icon simonfbarnes
    Free Member

    All seem to think that their views and opinions are more righteous than anyone else

    I don’t, I just please myself. As for right and wrong, I claim indifference. I don’t care what any external agency says is right or wrong, I reserve the right to choose that for myself. However many gods there may be, I can’t see why I am obliged to take any notice of them, any more than they appear to notice me.

    Premier Icon goon
    Free Member

    Ha!

    [:?:]

    Too late, too tired, can’t be bothered, tbh.

    Night!

    And God Bless…

    I’d post something along the lines of ‘**** it, I can’t be arsed to think of a comeback’ but I’m too tired.

    😉

    Premier Icon simonfbarnes
    Free Member

    isn’t arguing more important than sleeping ? I was up till 4am yesterday just working on photos 🙂

    Premier Icon surfer
    Free Member

    Simon the stamp collecting quote is not mine, it may have been Daniel Dennet.

    Premier Icon surfer
    Free Member

    Why would we not want our Children to hear bible stories? the bible teaches so many positive things like treating other people as you want to be treated yourself, to respect one another and show kindness, values that we all appreciate. I know parents who send their children to sunday school despite not being believers themselves as they know the bible has a positive influence on them

    Phil, you are clearly trolling. The Golden rule can be distilled into a single sentence. Other religions have done this without preaching of genocide, jealousy, child murder, slave keeping, homophobia and mysogony.
    Which book are you reading?

    Premier Icon Obscura Sky
    Free Member

    My daughter attends an ordinary comprehensive school and told me recently that in RE they did a ‘survey’ of class beliefs and, out of a class of 28 children, there were only 2 Christians. Even as an atheist, I was (pleasantly) surprised by this.

    Premier Icon beefy
    Full Member

    Goon

    This post makes me feel like weeping for every life lead in scientific pursuit, for the enlightenment of ordinary people.

    I thought it was too simple for some people on here who are “free” thinkers, does it help that I am currently studying a degree in physics and doing quite well, (96% in last assignment)?

    At the end of life, we will all be proved either right or wrong, if I am wrong then I have lead a life of fun, of belief that stops me fretting about stuff, of fellowship with many people (my church has about 700 members, it is lively, full of joy and a great place to be) and we will have all had an argument for nothing.

    If you are wrong then the consequences are pretty bad.

    I also agree that with the post from anagallis_arvensis, if belief in God results in half hearted rubbish then this drives me crazy, if you believe in something then you should follow it whole heartedly. I find most church services lacking any sort of commitment, that is why I go to Huddersfield Christian Fellowship (Google it), we have just got a new purpose built building with a 2000 people capacity and loads more. It is full of some insanely intellegent people, they can’t all be wrong can they?

    Without a personal encounter of the supernatural realm, it is hard to believe.

    I am convinced because I have experienced things which have convinced me.

    I can’t argue about it really.

    Premier Icon AdamW
    Free Member

    If you are wrong then the consequences are pretty bad.

    Ah that old chestnut.

    I haven’t got enough life/time to believe in every G/god(s) just on the off-chance that one of them could be right. What if it is a non-theistic religion (e.g. Buddhism) that is right and I should spend all my time meditating – on the off-chance? There are so many religions out there I don’t know about. Some with loads of gods, some with one.

    Just imagine, you die and “arrive” somewhere where a big booming voice says “do you believe in the Lord God Squidgy and his faithful doodlebug Janet?”, as only worshipped on Zaxylat 5 in the Andromeda galaxy?

    To me I use the word ‘atheist’ in that while there is philosophical doubt about all god(s) they are all equally possible. The Christian god is no more probable than Zeus, Apollo, the Flying Spaghetti Monster or the aforementioned Squidgy. Call me agnostic if you want to, but I’m as agnostic about the Christian/Muslim/Jewish (etc, etc) god as Christians are about the Flying Spaghetti Monster…

    I cannot disprove god/s. To those who say that god/s definitely exist I only have one question:

    Please prove it and then I’ll believe.

    Premier Icon nickname
    Free Member

    Im convinced because I have experienced things which have convinced me.

    Out of interest, what things?

    Sadly I haven’t experienced anything in this life yet to make me belief. Was you a believer before these things happened?

    I think I’m the type of person that can only believe in something if there is scientific proof, or I see it with my own eyes.

    Premier Icon samuri
    Free Member

    the bible teaches so many positive things like treating other people as you want to be treated yourself, to respect one another and show kindness, values that we all appreciate

    Which is great but why do so many people who adopt religion seem to ignore these ideals and so often completely fly in the opposite direction? I appreciate that presumably the vast majority of people who’ve found religion aren’t this way but it’s hard to ignore sometimes. For example, the ‘fish on the boot – driver doesn’t indicate’ joke is well known for good reason.

    My sister in law was in a born again christian church for quite some time. They were to a man, the nastiest group of characters I have ever met. Proper contemptible sneering at everyone who wasn’t exactly like them. So many of the christians at my son’s school church were deceitful backstabbing bastards who were in it for one person only. I’ve not had huge dealings with church people outside these two arenas (apart from the local church my wife attended where they threatened her when she turned up with my son because they thought she was a single mum), so my perception may be a little skewed but it’s not looking good so far.

    Premier Icon samuri
    Free Member

    Just imagine, you die and “arrive” somewhere where a big booming voice says “do you believe in the Lord God Squidgy and his faithful doodlebug Janet?”, as only worshipped on Zaxylat 5 in the Andromeda galaxy?

    Precisely, and if so, that would be the action of a very unfair and unjust god, not what each and every religion proports god to be.

    Lets assume for a moment there is a god. When you get to the pearly gates ready for judgement, do you get judged on how much time you’ve spent on your knees mumbling prayers or by how good a person you are inside? As above, if it’s the latter than no amount of church time is going to save my sister in law, she’s an evil fecker and should go straight to hell.

    Premier Icon IanMunro
    Free Member

    If you are wrong then the consequences are pretty bad
    I thought you said god really loves me?

    Premier Icon miketually
    Full Member

    I thought you said god really loves me?

    Go for the death bed conversion, just to be on the safe side 😉

    Premier Icon epicyclo
    Full Member

    It’s not as bad as the enforcement of Green dogma that’s just caused the burning to death of over 300 people in Oz.

    Premier Icon squeekybrakes
    Free Member

    I think a lot of the time opinions about Christianity are actually quite subjective and more to do with negative personal experiences of the church or harsh, poe-faced, ‘Christians’ rather than an objective reflection on what the bible actually says. In some cases quite strong opinions can be expressed by those who haven’t actually ever read it which doesn’t seem a particularly objective or rational approach.

    Premier Icon miketually
    Full Member

    For atheists, Richard Dawkins is their prophet and The God Delusion is their Bible.

    Discuss.

    Premier Icon failedengineer
    Full Member

    My partner is head of BPE (beliefs, philosophy and ethics)at a large secondary school. She teaches about faith and the philosophy of religion without favouring any particular one. It seems to be well received and she gets some good A level results. Apparently, quite a lot of ‘RE’ teachers are not religious. Taught properly, it encourages thought about important subjects. She is of the opinion (me too) that faith schools should not be part of the state system and that there should be no seperate assemblies for anyone. As an aside, when I went to a state Grammar school 30-odd years ago, I was allowed to stand outside the assembly for the religious bit as an atheist, along with a few Hindus, Jews and others. The head was an atheist.

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