then dropping him like a stone in the final 200m

More like the last 50m, by a few seconds.

Presumably you feel the same about Carapaz and Vingegaard?

Vingegogo as Kelly calls him

Largely because that’s how it’s pronounced.

his best GC result is 46th in the 2020 Vuelta.

His best GC result in the only other Grand Tour he has competed in – as a domestique. Take a look at the rest of his palmares.

I seem to recall someone interviewing Pog’s trainer, who said he his ability to recover from big efforts was off-the-charts.

That could be EPO of course, or maybe a naturally high haematocrit (or whatever, I’m not a physiologist either)?

I doubt most athletic performance I see. Doesn’t stop me enjoying the show.

Will look up that interview too, but does this mean he needs to fuel frequently (rather than enhanced glycogen storage?), does he eat a lot. I do on long rides but then I’m a bit chubby and almost 50 👍

Probably more likely that he burns it more efficiently than others, less waste. A bit like Constantine Louloudis the Oxford & Olympic rower, he’s not very big for a rower (6’3″ and 93Kg) but has a stupidly high lactate threshold and at the time the highest VO2 max on the team, so for his size he could perform alongside the massive guys in the boat, but for a longer period of time – essentially he was just a more efficient human being.

Humans are evolving, just look at the size of teenagers now a days

Yes they are, but the size of kids now is down to nutrition and medical care that’s pretty much as good as gets for most folk that is more widely available than ever before.

His best GC result in the only other Grand Tour he has competed in – as a domestique. Take a look at the rest of his palmares.

It’s not exactly dazzling 51st in the ’21 Dauphine

Where as on the other hand

Smells bad to me, I lost interest in the GC

I seem to recall someone interviewing Pog’s trainer, who said he his ability to recover from big efforts was off-the-charts.

https://www.itv.com/itvcycling/articles/tadej-pogacars-coach-on-the-science-of-success

This is the interview that @munrobiker and @chakaping mentioned. It is interesting to watch.

Slightly off topic but I have a scene in my head of the local Gendarme’s sitting around the station watching the TdF on telly and seeing Colbrelli duking it out (again) with the climbers in the high mountains and one of them saying ‘Right, he’s gone too far now lads, lets give BV a bit of a shake’.

Yes they are, but the size of kids now is down to nutrition and medical care

So take better nutrition, medical care, training knowledge etc and apply them to someone who seems to be a genetically gifted person in the first place and bingo!

I think he’s clean. I think he’s too young to dope. Why would a young rider dope until he’s had time to fail?

I’m sure I read once about a youth talent spotter watching a race, he turned up late and said to a colleague. Why don’t they pull that lad out, he’s about to get lapped again. His colleague replied, that pog who I’ve come to see, he’s about to lap the entire field again! He’s special, very special. He was right (Im sure it was pog but might be wrong)

However, they do trust what they are given to eat and drink and don’t question anything the team does! Do I trust the teams who are chasing success and trying to keep their jobs? But that’s just me being cynical with nothing to back it up!

Valverde on the other hand never ceases to amaze me and with his history, the era he came from and his age defying performances I always ask how on earth he keeps doing it?

When I saw the first mountain stage attack it was just like watching someone in a Phonak jersey riding up the Joux Plan. Cycling has got far too much dodgy history to take anything at face value.

It’s also when you wait for the ‘once in a generation talent’ to emerge and five or six come along in the space of two years. What some of the younger riders are doing particularly when they are excelling at wildly different disciplines in successive days doesn’t seem possible.

So

https://www.itv.com/itvcycling/articles/tadej-pogacars-coach-on-the-science-of-success

is not an impartial

someone from a university in the States who uses Team UAE as a source of data for research. They made it clear that they don’t care if the team wins or loses, they’re just there to study the riders and Pogacar

really.

Suspect they’re racing within the rules these days, and using nutrition tuning etc to much greater benefit. I think they’d have been found out.

And let’s face it, they’ve been asking the same veiled question about anyone performing in the mountains in the last few years. Froome was subjected to the same when he was dominating 6 years ago and Sky released his powermeter data

there is lots of data out there on power outputs etc that suggests that these top riders have the ability to put down huge power for longer periods. Yesterday three guys finished within seconds of each other – so are they all doping then? But that likely small percentage advantage that Pogacar has pays off on these steep finishes.
Mathieu van der Poel’s power numbers are also in the same region as Pogacar, and had he stayed for the duration i suspect he’s be giving Pog a bit of competition

And Pogacar was doing this last TdF as well remember:
https://www.cyclingnews.com/features/tour-de-france-power-analysis-tadej-pogacars-record-breaking-ascent-of-the-col-de-peyresourde/

Theyre built ddifferent to us:
https://cyclingtips.com/2021/07/van-der-poels-coach-explains-what-makes-him-different-from-the-rest-of-us/

more power comparisons from the UAE tour:
https://www.velonews.com/training/power-analysis-crosswinds-time-trials-and-mountains-at-the-2021-uae-tour/

can we mention Cav’s spectacular return to form yet? 🙂

Lance’s podcast used the phrase “they got the science right on that team”.

Raises eyebrow….

I’d like to think pro cycling is clean now, but then you see the various investigations like aderlass and the whole Sky dodgy parcel thing, and then this, and it’s clear that things are far from squeaky clean.

Seeing Pogacar soar into the lead on GC without looking like he’s even trying – possibly even smiling as he climbs a 12% climb very quickly after 2.5 weeks in the saddle – well, something just doesn’t sit right with me.

can we mention Cav’s spectacular return to form yet?

I’ve considered this too.

IMHO Cav has had a number of fairly quiet yrs re. training recovery from injury & illness, this may have been beneficial in that he’s fairly well rested. Also his racing acumen & hunger are, bluntly, second to none. He also has the best lead out train on the Tour.

Is it even possible to dope at any level now? He looks as if he could win many tours at the moment.

can we mention Cav’s spectacular return to form yet? 🙂

Why don’t you ask Cav himself if he’s had to get on the gear?

I’m sure he’d take it well.

Is it even possible to dope at any level now

Testing can only be for what’s known I’d have thought. If there’s a new “supplement” that doesn’t get picked up by current tests/cause anomalous readings then it’d go under the radar.

And folks have had their eye on Vingegaard for a while:
https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/tour-de-france-vingegaard-wears-tag-of-challenger-lightly-ahead-of-andorra-test/

Is it even possible to dope at any level now?

Yes of course it is. I think you’d have to be naïve or optimistic to think that it’s a clean sport.

can we mention Cav’s spectacular return to form yet? 🙂

Why don’t you ask Cav himself if he’s had to get on the gear?

I’m sure he’d take it well.

i think i’m more interested in how popular opinion would be treating it if he wasn’t um, how can i put this, one of ours…
🙂

At least Cav looks knackered after every stage.

I think he’s clean. I think he’s too young to dope. Why would a young rider dope until he’s had time to fail?

Pog aside I think that’s rather naive, people don’t dope to avoid failure, they do it to succeed. Same as cheating in exams etc. For pro sports the need to produce on a specific day is huge, a youngster trying to break into the sport simply can’t afford not to be good on the day the scout turns up, be that football or cycling. They have to be exceptional to get the scout coming to look at them in the first instance and they need to be driven to succeed. To achieve what Pog, bernal, pidcock et al have requires you to put your entire life outside cycling on hold and even as an adult, that’s a huge sacrifice in the hope of a tiny chance at a pay off.

At the pointy untested end of youth sport with a view to going pro or ending up oran office job? I’d expect the issue of banned substances to be endemic to be honest.

It’s the first result on Google so admittedly it’s not a directly comparable thing but even then.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/50785122.amp

Has this been done yet?

Maurten hydrogel

Coupled with Pog’s alleged natural ability to recover that’s a pretty potent mix. Currently completely legal. I’ve also noticed Blood Glucose monitors being used in endurance sports. Nothing wrong with that as far as I can see.

Seeing Pogacar soar into the lead on GC without looking like he’s even trying

This is the point I’ve been trying to make – he’s not soared into the lead, the massive lead he’s got is mostly down to the oppositions’ shit luck in the first week, which was just carnage, and their shit tactics all through the race, so he’s not had to try that hard to defend the lead he has. And he was clearly repeatedly trying to drop the other two yesterday, and couldn’t, and he only just won the stage. And he was dropped on Ventoux. The time gap he has overstates the difference between him and the others.

Slightly off topic but I have a scene in my head of the local Gendarme’s sitting around the station watching the TdF on telly and seeing Colbrelli duking it out (again) with the climbers in the high mountains and one of them saying ‘Right, he’s gone too far now lads, lets give BV a bit of a shake’.

Police raid Bahrain Victorious hotel at Tour de France

Testing can only be for what’s known I’d have thought. If there’s a new “supplement” that doesn’t get picked up by current tests/cause anomalous readings then it’d go under the radar.

This is technically very possible, on the one hand, because as you say testers can only look for what is known and it’s easy for a good chemist to outwit an LC-MS and its operative. But on the other it seems really unlikely (IMHO) outside of large state-sponsored doping programs.

Taking a drug invented and synthesised by a back-street chemist is pretty wild – I mean doping with known PEDs has its dangers but take a step back and it’s not THAT risky, not compared to being a one-person clinical trial for Dave the (bad) chemist.

It’s happened, though – the BALCO affair in the US was one guy doing exactly this, taking a known synthetic steroid and making a simple modification (tetrahydrogestrinone) – Marion Jones won 3 gold medals on the THG. The drug was identified via the actions of a whistleblower, not an analytical chemist, which is I guess inevitable – you can’t keep an invisible drug like that secret for too long.

For me, the fundamental issue is whether we choose to believe after so many years of it being repeatedly proven that our faith in riders being clean was utterly misplaced. As a sport, road cycling continues to allow proven dopers to be associated with the sport. David Millar gets a job as a commentator as does Sean Kelly.  Both returned positive tests in their careers and received bans. Jonathan Vaughters as founder and CEO of EF Education admitted to using PEDs yet still has a seat at the table. If you compile a list of riders who have performed at the highest level of cycling over the years but who have been subsequently exposed for using PEDs, it is a pretty long list.

I would love to believe that riders are clean but I am afraid that history and experience suggest otherwise. I can still enjoy the spectacle but won’t feign surprise if it is subsequently proven that the biggest performances were chemically enhanced. Sadly, doping and professional cycling go hand in hand.

When it comes to blowing the whistle, there is a lack of appetite to properly tackle the issues or even to listen. Nicole Cooke delivered a damning indictment on British Cycling and Team Sky in her written and oral submissions to the Parliamentary Select Committee in 2017 and yet one wonders has anything actually changed? She performed and succeeded at the very highest level and has been a very vocal critic of the doping and sexist culture in cycling yet her voice has been the one to have been ignored.

So to answer your question, no you’re not wrong to doubt.

Coupled with Pog’s alleged natural ability to recover that’s a pretty potent mix. Currently completely legal. I’ve also noticed Blood Glucose monitors being used in endurance sports. Nothing wrong with that as far as I can see.

Smoke & mirrors at best re. Maurten. They’ve not released their research for peer review so would take it with a pinch of salt – pardon the pun!

TBH it isn’t just his performance for me. My gut feeling is that his demeanour when he is being interviewed just doesn’t quite sit right. Highly subjective I know & I hope I am wrong, but I do think even the most accomplished liars find it difficult to maintain the facade completely. Let’s face it, Lance’s ‘I’m the most tested athlete in the world’ shtick isn’t actually an outright denial. I’m afraid Pog gives off the same vibe.

Mathieu van der Poel’s power numbers are also in the same region as Pogacar, and had he stayed for the duration i suspect he’s be giving Pog a bit of competition

I doubt it somehow as he’s about 10kg heavier.

And let’s face it, they’ve been asking the same veiled question about anyone performing in the mountains in the last few years. Froome was subjected to the same when he was dominating 6 years ago and Sky released his powermeter data

Froome went from being a fat no hoper with dubious bike handling skills to an ultra slim GT winner with dubious bike handling skills, so probably a more valid question when it’s aimed at him.

I’ve also noticed Blood Glucose monitors being used

The UCI banned glucose monitoring last month – https://www.bikeradar.com/news/uci-bans-supersapiens/

FWIW, I think Valverde and Colbrelli’s performances are far more suspicious than Pog’s.

alleged natural ability to recover

After the finish yesterday, Pog was lying on the ground blowing out his arse like a good ‘un, he lay there for a good 4-5 minutes still puffing away. He took longer to recover than I expected.
I don’t recall seeing indurain or many others doing that for an *extended* period of time like that, which makes me think he was pushing to the max.

**extended time for a pro athlete, obviously I’d have had a heart attack several hours earlier 😂😂

Froome G went from being a fat no hoper with dubious bike handling skills to an ultra slim GT winner with dubious bike handling skills, so probably a more valid question when it’s aimed at him.

Still stand by that?

Froome went from being a fat no hoper with dubious bike handling skills to an ultra slim GT winner with dubious bike handling skills, so probably a more valid question when it’s aimed at him

You mean less valid? There is no drug that can remotely approach the performance impact of shipping 9 kilos of bodyweight from an already pro cyclist.

How he lost that weight is an interesting question.

FWIW, I think Valverde and Colbrelli’s performances are far more suspicious than Pog’s.

Agreed – If anyone on the Tour is Juicing – my money is on Colbrelli.

I think Pog is standing out against because his main competition isn’t there, and Cav is cleaning up because he has by far the best lead-out train, and again mediocre competition – Marcel Kittel of 5 years ago would be all over him, as would Sagan at his best/not staying out of trouble due to the Olympics.

As for Carapaz’ face of pain, its well documented after yesterday that it was all bluffing and that Pogacar was properly pissed off with his unwillingness to do a turn, hence the attack at the end by Pog.

Why would Carapaz want to effectively ride for Pogacar? It’s a race, he was happily being towed away from Uran who he wanted to distance and maximising his chances of winning the stage. He also wanted to distance theh Danish guy, so if he wanted to share the work with Pog, that was all good for Carapaz no?

you are seeing the strongest GC rider in the world competing in a heavily depleted field

The devil’s advocate question is why he’s ‘the strongest GC rider in the world’. I have no idea if he’s doping or not, but the fact that other riders aren’t on his level doesn’t make him somehow automatically clean.

It’ll be interesting to see how he manages a fully fit Bernal in the high mountains though, could be an interesting Vuelta.