To be honest, unless we are comparing a Micra with a Veyron, having a “fast” car makes much less difference than A) you would think and more importantly B) the drivers skill set.

Even cooking family cars are quite fast enough to overtake in pretty much any sensibly safe situation. (and i’m not talking about some mad kamakazi style runup that we all did as kids in our first crappy car!)

Look at some numbers:
Cooking car:0-60 8sec
Sports car: 0-60 5sec

The sports car looks a lot “faster”, yet when the sports car reaches 60, the cooking car will still be doing about 50!

Traffic isn’t a “queue” in that way, it doesn’t flow as a singleminded unit, every individual has their own desires and capabilities. There are people in the line who are happy where they are, and people who aren’t, and people who aren’t that bothered but will make progress when they can.

Other drivers have no way to know whether you’re unwilling or incapable of passing, so expecting them to wait for you to go, which may never happen, is not reasonable.

In your example- the car behind waits to see what you do. Now, what if you don’t go either, because you’re happy with the pace? Absolutely fine, but now both you and he are still behind the car, whereas if he’d gone “selfishly”, at least one driver is making progress. Now add in some more- driver 3 who was behind 3 cars is still behind 3 cars not 2. And then, remember that you’re not always going to be driver 2.

The smoothest progress is made by the most drivers when people take safe opportunities as and when they can and wish to. Look at it in terms of traffic flow rather than the individual outcome. What you consider as selfishness or unfairness is actually giving the better outcome for the most members of the group.

Very strange! What makes it ‘YOUR’ opportunity? Do you own the road perhaps?

No, I’m first in the queue, which is my point.

Very unlikely situation in reality though isn’t it?

No, it happens every time there’s a long queue on a particularly windy road in certain parts of the country. Very common, otherwise I wouldn’t be going on about it.

Now, what if you don’t go either, because you’re happy with the pace?

Then he knows that next time he can overtake me or both of us with a clear conscience. The time spent waiting behind is not important. It’s morally egregious, that’s my problem with it. Just like queue jumping in a supermarket.

Look at it in terms of traffic flow rather than the individual outcome. What you consider as selfishness or unfairness is actually giving the better outcome for the most members of the group.

Not sure I agree with that. It would be like asking to go infront of someone with a whole trolley full when you only have a pint of milk. Not bad, but if everyone with a pint of milk does it, the trolley load could be waiting forever. Overall, lots of people would have gone through the checkout, so overall flow would be high. But it’s not fair on the poor sod at the back is it?

I’ve not read any of the subsequent posting since yesterday, but…

but you lot are just ignoring or misunderstanding molgrips’ point and then presenting your OWN misunderstanding of it as his problem!

I’m not surprized. Could some folk even be angling for a flounce ?
😉

But anyway, I’ve met people who tell me that they will not overtake. If they encounter a lorry, they will sit behind it until one or other turns off the route. These people typically sit very close to the rear of the long vehicle. They are now increasing the distance people who do wish to over take, have to travel.

As before, the roads are crazy, filled by drivers of widely varying capability, driving cars of differing performance. I’ve seen it all, nothing surprizes me, not even this 16 page thread on overtaking.
😉

Carry on
😀

No, I’m first in the “queue”

FTFY

Molgrips, how does anyone know your intentions?
How long are they supposed to wait for you to start overtaking?
Could it be that you are hesitant and take too long (to ensure your manouvre is safe?) so they get fed up waiting as they have a window of oppertunity fast disappearing.

Whilst its a PITA being queue jumped, it happens and its not dangerous unless your oberservations are lacking.

My biggest gripe is when people who are quite happily dwadling at 40mph in a NSL suddenly decide that they now want to do 60mph the very moment I decide to overtake them, instantly turning a safe legal overtake into a choice between putting the anchors on and pulling back in behind or going faster and having to pull back in much later than you originally anticpated. Neither option being particularly good.

you lot are just ignoring or misunderstanding molgrips’ point and then presenting your OWN misunderstanding of it as his problem!

Nope – I understand it perfectly, I just think he’s wrong. He doesn’t appear to understand my (our) point though.

molgrips – Member

No, I’m first in the queue, which is my point.

molgrips – Member

Then he knows that next time he can overtake me or both of us with a clear conscience.

But in your example, “That’s the last overtaking spot for 5 miles.” and apparently that’s a big deal when it’s you that’s held up. You consider it a problem when you’re inconvenienced to that degree but you’re perfectly happy for it to happen to other people.

It’s not at all like a queue in a supermarket. The person in front of you in the queue at a supermarket definitely wants to get to the front.

My biggest gripe is when people who are quite happily dwadling at 40mph in a NSL suddenly decide that they now want to do 60mph the very moment I decide to overtake them

Ooo !, yeah ! I really, really, want to know the real answer to that one. I’ve never managed to get to ask any of the fools who play that particular game of driving idiot.

“That’s the last overtaking spot for 5 miles.”. You consider it a problem when you’re inconvenienced to that degree but you’re perfectly happy for it to happen to other people.

You’re missing the point.

If I lose a teabag, I’m not that bothered. If someone I don’t know takes a teabag from my desk without asking, that’s not right.

maxtorque – Member

To be honest, unless we are comparing a Micra with a Veyron, having a “fast” car makes much less difference than A) you would think and more importantly B) the drivers skill set.

Even cooking family cars are quite fast enough to overtake in pretty much any sensibly safe situation. (and i’m not talking about some mad kamakazi style runup that we all did as kids in our first crappy car!)

Look at some numbers:
Cooking car:0-60 8sec
Sports car: 0-60 5sec

The sports car looks a lot “faster”, yet when the sports car reaches 60, the cooking car will still be doing about 50!

0-60 times only tell half of the story and isn’t really that relevant to everyday driving. The 30-70 acceleration of a car is much more relevant to everyday driving. Here there really can be a huge difference between a normal ‘cooking’ car and a truly fast car.

I’m sure we’ve all been in a badly judged overtake at some point? I’ve had a couple in my driving past when I was less experienced. Having a faster car is the difference between being able to squeeze on a bit more power knowing that you will safely get through to the other side, or having to brake and return to the queue behind the slow moving vehicle (not a nice situation).

Not condoning marginal overtaking in any way, but no-ones perfect and sometimes we all get things wrong so in the odd situation when the unexpected happens having a powerful car will give you many more options to escape the situation safely.

Molgrips, how does anyone know your intentions?

That’s kind of my point.

How long are they supposed to wait for you to start overtaking?

Longer than they typically do, which is not at all.

molgrips – Member

You’re missing the point.

If I lose a teabag, I’m not that bothered. If someone I don’t know takes a teabag from my desk without asking, that’s not right.

Maybe you should have a large, scrolling, rear-facing matrix sign on your roof:

“Sensitive Driver. Overtaking Deliberation in progress. Please do not pass. It’s Rude!”

If I lose a teabag, I’m not that bothered. If someone I don’t know takes a teabag from my desk without asking, that’s not right.

How do you feel about somebody using the last teabag in the communal pot which was “yours”?

molgrips – Member

If I lose a teabag, I’m not that bothered. If someone I don’t know takes a teabag from my desk without asking, that’s not right.

It’s even less like losing a teabag than it is like a queue in a supermarket.

Better analogy- 10 people are waiting to get through a door. The 2 people in front are jammed- “after you!” “No after you!” “I insist, after you!” The other 8 really couldn’t give a crap who goes through first, because by delaying each other they delay everyone. An impression of what’s fair or polite applied to the individuals gives an undesired outcome for the group.

It is basically game theory. Actions which seem individually selfish or counterproductive make sense when you consider the outcome for the group. And failing to consider the outcome for the group is inherently selfish.

aracer – Member

How do you feel about somebody using the last teabag in the communal pot which was “yours”?

Very good!

molgrips – Member

Very strange! What makes it ‘YOUR’ opportunity? Do you own the road perhaps?

No, I’m first in the queue, which is my point.

Ah so you don’t own the road, just the right to always be first on it if you want then?

What does ‘teabagging’ have to do with overtaking anyway? I’d have thought that combining the two could be deadly?

Anybody slower than me is a dangerous ditherer.
Anybody faster than me is a hooligan.

I’m still waiting for someone to tell me why people drive slowly until you go to overtake. Then floor it. Whats that all about then ?

Solo – Member

I’m still waiting for someone to tell me why people drive slowly until you go to overtake. Then floor it. Whats that all about then ?

An affront to manhood, I assume.

Seriously? 540 posts on overtaking?

A short summary of progress made to date is required. 😉

An affront to manhood, I assume.

Yes, I had imagined that might be the case. I once had this with a young lad. Every time I entered lane 2 to over take, he’d give it the gas. When we got into town, we had to stop at a red light. So I got out to approach him. My genuine intention was to ask. Why. He saw me and floored the car right through a red light.
😯

After this many pages, regardless of what the title is, the conversation’s normally mostly about having a conversation 😉

A short summary of progress made to date is required.

We’re all in a que, waiting for someone up front to overtake.
😉

I don’t want to get entangled in a “right or wrong” or “my point of view” kinda argument, because generally everyone has their own view on things (and rightly so) but i’d just say one final thing:

It will be much easier, and far more productive to change the way “you” (whoever that you is) act, than to wait or wish for everyone else to change! One of the side effects of a lot of the advanced driver training courses is that, generally without you even realising it, they actuslly prevent this sort of situation occuring, and then you don’t need to fix the problem!

Much like our Jedi teaching MTBers good footwork / looking / body positioning basics, those skills help prevent riders actuslly getting into situations that they currently can’t control!

The issue in particular with Driving is that everyone is an expert, afterall, i’ve been “driving for 20 years” (or whatever) so how can i not be?? And, again, much like being jedi’d, the real trick is mental, and involves “openning ones mind” to new and different ideas and techniques. (Usually so simple and obvious you can’t quite belief you have never tried them 😉

rebel12 – Member

“the guy behind me knew i wanted to overtake, but took ‘my’* opportunity”

Very strange! What makes it ‘YOUR’ opportunity? Do you own the road perhaps?

hence my* inverted commas.

i was just explaining something to someone, there’s no need to get all rude about it.

(*i mean ‘mine’ as in; i typed them. i’m not laying sole claim to the use of inverted commas)

and like i said, i don’t lose any sleep over it.

We’re all in a que, waiting for someone up front to overtake.

I see. 😉

So I’ll just pull in at the back and wind my window down. Is this one of those queues that’s going to make me angry?

How do you feel about somebody using the last teabag in the communal pot which was “yours”?

Alright. Say I’m old and infirm, and I’m hobbling my way over to the kitchen to make a cup of tea. Young sales rep sees me approaching, and sprints over, barges in front at the last second and grabs the last teabag.

Ah so you don’t own the road, just the right to always be first on it if you want then?

No, I’ve been waiting my turn patiently, and someone else takes it instead of me.

Is this one of those queues that’s going to make me angry?

Less of that whinging from the back there. You’ll just have to wait your turn.
🙂

Im trying to understand how anyone is supposed to differentiate between molgrips pondering on overtaking and a ditherer who has no intention of overtaking?
In short you dont, so you have two options.

1) Overtake and be damned
2) Dont overtake and be damned.

So which one is right??

You’ll just have to wait your turn.

You know, I’m thinking I could just swing out onto the verge and take the whole lot of you in one effective swoop… I have somewhere important to be and I can’t hang around forever. 😉

I think molgrips standing near the teabag tin chatting and thinking about making a cup when somebody else wanders up, makes a cup of tea and leaves before he notices would be a better analogy.

What family ‘cooking’ car does 0-60 in 8 seconds?

Pandas – Eats, shoots and leaves.

So which one is right??

My answer ?, if you’ve no intention of overtaking, put 2 or 3 car lengths between you and the rear of the lorry. In other words, leave a gap. That’s then the gap those who do wish to get by. Can drift into, before launching an assault of the main obstacle.
Be part of the solution, not part of the problem. Some will disagree.
😀

This still going on?

The fact that people can get so cross about someone flashing their lights at them or slotting into a space puts into perspective a lot of the anger over here.

I was overtaken this morning. It was fine. Somehow I worked through the emotional impact of it all, don’t ask me how.

You know, I’m thinking I could just swing out onto the verge and take the whole lot of you in one effective swoop… I have somewhere important to be and I can’t hang around forever.

😆

Solo – Member
I’m still waiting for someone to tell me why people drive slowly until you go to overtake. Then floor it. Whats that all about then ?

It i’m afriad is actually very simple, and comes down once again to not paying sufficient attention to the task in hand.

For the vast majority of people, driving is just something they do in order to go do something else, rather than a specific task in it’s own right. Hence the average driver tends to pick a speed that matches their concentration and observation level. At this speed, not thinking about driving at all, they are entirely reactive, and simple procede along in their own “bubble”. Typically they won’t have noticed say the road leaving a built up area, or better visibility that “signals” that more speed could be appropriate etc. Hence, when you overtake you “suprise” and “wake them up” and 9 times out of ten, this impetus to re-consider their surrounding makes them realise that a faster speed would have been more appropriate!

Added to which, the typical driver has little confidence in the way they drive, more often than not simply following the car ahead etc. Traffic officers must get very tired of the phrase “well officer, everyone else was speeding too” as an excuse when getting stopped.

Generally speaking, i like to overtake these “sleep drivers” and then drive in a fashion that simply prevents then from latching on to my bumper like an unwanted “spoiler” 😉