I’d rather they crashed behind me than in front of me. So long as there’s no contact.

Forgot to put in my last post, even with the inadequate driving test at the moment, a candidate could fail for going too slow and not overtaking for example If they are stuck behind a HGV in a NSL and don’t take a opportunity to overtake.

They are unlikely to fail if they miss one opportunity but could fail for the second or third.

If they sat at 40 themselves instead of getting upto NSL, if safe, they will fail and it would be marked under progress appropriate speed, possibly undue hesitation depending on the circumstances.

Looking away from the test, could driving under the speed limit be considered driving without due care and attention or driving without due regard for other road users ? I’m not too sure as I don’t know the exact circumstances in law.

Have they introduced overtaking training in driving lessons?

How could they instructor fail them on something they have never been taught?

Cougar – Moderator

But generally if you can plan a run-up

Taking a run-up to overtake is often considered bad form as you are increasing speed at the same time as you are running out of options and reaching the point of no return.

I know what you mean about vehicle performance, but I have had the pleasure of driving a 75 bhp shopping trolley and a 400 bhp, 187mph uber saloon, and although I can overtake safely in both, I’m presented with many more opportunities in Bavaria’s finest.
🙂

Have they introduced overtaking training in driving lessons?

How could they instructor fail them on something they have never been taught?

I passed my test 9 years ago in North Wales, and I was taught how to overtake safely, and to make progress AT the speed limit if conditions allowed. One of my friends at the time failed her test twice, once each for not doing both of these things.

I passed mine in Nov 2001, and didn’t receive one second of overtaking procedure tuition.

My Dad had to teach me – and it was safer to do it in his 110hp TDi car than my little 1.3L Fiesta.

Suffice to say, I think I only overtook cyclists and tractors in that Fiesta..

Think that might be down to individual instructors then. I passed my test in 1999 and at least some portion of my later lessons was spent on NSL roads and involved instruction in overtaking.

Looking away from the test, could driving under the speed limit be considered driving without due care and attention or driving without due regard for other road users ?

The speed limit is exactly what it says ie. the maximum allowed speed in good conditions.

Away from test conditions, it would be difficult to to prove if someone was wilfully holding up traffic (for whatever reason), although the way, and speed, at which some people drive I would be in favour of re-testing when it’s obvious something is badly wrong (and that could be from the elderly to boy racers).

I do remember someone being successfully prosecuted in Aberdeen for ‘enforcing’ the speed limit on a motorway and going very slowly. I can’t remember what the actual offence was though.

I passed mine in Nov 2001, and didn’t receive one second of overtaking procedure tuition.

My Dad had to teach me – and it was safer to do it in his 110hp TDi car than my little 1.3L Fiesta.

Suffice to say, I think I only overtook cyclists and tractors in that Fiesta..

Well… Guess I must have had a better tutor! Also, whilst not as easy, even my wife could overtake people in her 1.3L fiasco.

Just been sent this, the bit about “social order” is spot on and as relevant to motorists v motorists as it is to cyclists v motorists

Why do drivers get angry at cyclists

According to the CPS, driving too slowly comes under the category of Driving without reasonable consideration – Section 3 RTA 1988.

Some interesting stuff on that page – e.g. Wanton and Furious Driving.

Faster cars are not INTRINSICALLY safer when overtaking. They allow you to take many more opportunities more safely.

However I’m exactly as safe in a fast car as I am in a slow one. That’s because I choose my opportunities appropriately.

Similarly, I’ve probably seen more dangerous overtakes in fast cars than I have in slow ones. There seems to be an element of risk compensation going on…

Or perhaps driving a big fast real man’s car gets you addicted to speed and makes you think you should be zooming around everywhere… there’s a reason I don’t own fast cars…

They allow you to take many more opportunities more safely.

Thereby “pushing in”?

Anyone can push in… what’s your point?

A recent photo of Molgrips and his car;

Anyone can push in… what’s your point?

Well, you seemed to have reduced your argument to a toddler’s tantrum level of IT’S NOT FAIR!!!!!!! a while back. That seemed a little contrary to your final recognition that people in faster cars may well be able to overtake where you can’t, thereby taking ‘your’ place, and that being all hunky-dory.

That’s all.

not “pushing in” at all.

Faster cars require less road length to complete the whole operation in a safe manner.

That’s not what I meant at all. There are more opportunities to overtake single vehicles, but that still doesn’t excuse queue jumping, in case you hadn’t quite registered that as my main argument.

And calling me a tantrum throwing toddler because I care about fairness and being nice to people is absolutely ridiculous.

molgrips – would it be acceptable to ‘queue jump’ a car, if that car was not powerful enough to overtake?

What, ever?

Or just not at that exact moment?

Why has that car’s face been blurred out? Is it ashamed of being seen with Molgrips?

Cougar – Moderator

If you’re trying to overtake someone who’s decided to try and race you mid-overtake, how is letting him get away and dropping back a bad idea? Locking your brain into a single course of action is dangerous, you need to adapt.

No idea at all where “locking your brain into a single course of action” came from tbh 😕 All I’ve talked about is choices and how higher performance vehicles give you more and better choices. This is fundamentally and I think undeniably safer.

Think that might be down to individual instructors then

Or maybe where you learn to drive and take your test. Every single meter of my test was in 30 limit and whilst I did have some NSL between where I lived and the test centre I still remember my instructor telling me to slow down because he was worried about the sign attached to the roof (I’d only hit 50 IIRC). I’m sure there are some people who never leave a 30 limit before passing their test.

And calling me a tantrum throwing toddler because I care about fairness and being nice to people is absolutely ridiculous.

Well, with the exception of you on this thread, the only person I’ve hear yell IT’S NOT FAIR!!!!!!! recently is our friends’ four year old.

You just seem a bit upset that people are more alert / better drivers / have faster cars than you. Which pretty much boils down to the same reaction as the 4yo comes out with when he’s told he can’t have his own way too.

What, ever?

Or just not at that exact moment?

If I’m the 3rd vehicle behind a lorry, followed by a milk float (for example), and there’s a good straight bit, but the milk float doesn’t want to/can’t overtake, but I’m confident I can do both safely and without problems to either other vehicle, is it alright to pass both vehicles in one go?

That’s how I read the comment, and I agree with the question.

Really don’t understand this “queue jumping” idea. It’s not a queue to overtake- sometimes people overtake, sometimes they don’t- as ably demonstrated by this thread. If you’re behind 2 slow-moving cars and the one behind is unable to pass or doesn’t desire to, does that mean you should just sit behind it? Overtaking more than one car safely is absolutely fine, and different drivers make different choices about when they will or will not pass.

(silly simile- if you get to the front of a queue in a shop and the person in front doesn’t actually want to buy anything and just stands there staring into space, would you stand behind them til the shop closed?)

You just seem a bit upset that people are more alert / better drivers / have faster cars than you

Except that’s not at all what I’m saying is it?

I’m saying that people force me to wait behind whilst they go through, when I could have gone. They are taking my chances by force.

It isn’t fair, and it isn’t nice. And I don’t know why the **** you are bringing your friend’s kid into it, that’s just ridiculous.

If I’m the 3rd vehicle behind a lorry, followed by a milk float (for example), and there’s a good straight bit, but the milk float doesn’t want to/can’t overtake, but I’m confident I can do both safely and without problems to either other vehicle, is it alright to pass both vehicles in one go?

Of course, since it’s obvious it’s not going to pass. For the 100th time that’s not my issue though.

. If you’re behind 2 slow-moving cars and the one behind is unable to pass or doesn’t desire to, does that mean you should just sit behind it?

The issue is when I DO want to pass, but am prevented from doing so by someone else’s actions. I’ve explained the scenario about six times on this thread already I’m not doing it again.

I’m not talking about two slow cars and a fast one. I’m talking about one slow car and ten cars in a line behind it. Then the eleventh car starts passing all the other cars as soon as he arrives, with no idea if any of the other cars are also waiting to ‘make progress’.

molgrips – Member

The issue is when I DO want to pass, but am prevented from doing so by someone else’s actions.

How, exactly, does that happen? If you can’t overtake because someone else is already overtaking you, obviously you have already passed up on the opportunity to overtake that they’re using.

I’m confused how someone behind you can “prevent” you from passing?

If your are using the correct observational, positional and temporal driving techniques, by the time the person behind will be where you were, you shouldn’t be there!

Now of course, the person behind you may well have a significantly faster car, or more likely, is will to accept a higher risk, so they may choose to attempt an overtake where you don’t. Now you don’t know anything about their skillset or utilisation of it, so at that point you need to accept what is happening and if neccessary position your car/adjust your speed to ensure they can safely complete their maneouver. If you find this situation occurs a lot, it is in your best interest to get some advanced driver training, as chances are you are almost certainly missing a critical skillset somewhere. It also takes a more mature mental state to “help” others overtake, especially when you personnally would not have considered that particular maneouver to be appropriate.

Generally also most issues stem from a lack of observation. For example, you are in rolling 40mpg “queue” of 5 cars, with a lorry at the front. You observe in your mirrors a sports car catching the group fast. In this case, not expecting them to attempt a multicar overtake would be nieve. At this point, a really good driver might even start to open up a bigger gap to the car ahead (which should already be enough for someone to get into, not 1 car length as most “sheep” now allow) to give YOURSELF a buffer if that driver attempts an overtake and misjudges it. Occupying the moral high ground from your bed in A&E is less satisfying that you might think……… ‘-)

It’s been covered in the thread, but here’s a recap of the main issue:

Let’s say I’m 2nd in the queue. 1st place is looking to overtake but can’t yet, because he’s driving a normal car and the straights are too small.

Speedy man comes from behind in his fast car, passes me in a small space and waits behind 1st. The next gap comes, there’s space for only two cars, they both go. I’m left behind, when I should have been through. That’s the last overtaking spot for 5 miles.

1st place is looking to overtake but can’t yet, because he’s driving a normal car milk float and the straights are too small.

🙂

To be fair Molgrips, before overtaking anything you’d probably have to submit a post on STW asking what everyone else thought you should do, as making decisions doesn’t appear to be one of your strong points does it?

I’m talking about one slow car and ten cars in a line behind it. Then the eleventh car starts passing all the other cars as soon as he arrives, with no idea if any of the other cars are also waiting to ‘make progress’.

Which is exactly what all of us on this thread are talking about when we mention overtaking in stages 🙄

Molegrips, your argument is totally flawed.

If rules or politeness dictated that everyone (by everyone I mean everyone in the queue who is harbouring intensions to overtake at some point) must overtake in their turn then how is that fair on the hesitant driver who is feeling pressured by the weight of others behind waiting for him to complete his overtake.

No doubt in this situation the less confident driver in a less powerful car would feel obliged overtake at the earliest opportunity (so as not to hold up those behind itching to get past) and may feel pressured into overtaking in a situation when really it’s not safe to do so, putting lives at risk.

To compare with biking do you remember when you were learning to MTB and had a much faster rider behind you waiting to get past on a section of rocky downhill. Not a nice feeling is it? Often less confident riders get into accidents because they feel morally pushed to go faster than they are able due to this sort of situation.

Far better to let each driver assess the situation and overtake when they believe it is safe for them to go whether 1st in the queue or 10th in the queue, don’t you agree.

Your other argument that you were starting to pull out when someone came at you from behind is also flawed. The highway code (not that you believe it is relevant) states that you always need to check behind before starting your overtake. So if you pulled out into someone coming at you from behind then it would be your fault if it ended up in a big mess.

Molgrips. Did you have a look at the IAM link I posted yesterday on this thread?

Given the number of people saying the same thing to you, do you not think that at least one of them may have a point?

There’s no shame in getting more training. I acknowledged my driving skills weren’t as good as I would like, so I did something about it.

maxtorque – Member

I’m confused how someone behind you can “prevent” you from passing?

it can/does happen…

eg: on a dual-carriageway*, looking to overtake, look in wing mirror, see a fast-chap coming up on the outside lane, don’t want to give him a heart attack so don’t signal – as i won’t be pulling out in front of him – he goes past, I start indicating, there’s another fast-chap behind him, i let him past, there’s a gap, and the guy behind me pulls out and accelerates before you can say ‘split-second’

the guy behind me knew i wanted to overtake (i was indicating), but took ‘my’** opportunity…

(*it doesn’t even have to be a DC, i (try to) always check my mirror before any overtaking move)

(**but i won’t lose any sleep over it)

molgrips – Member

It’s been covered in the thread, but here’s a recap of the main issue:

Let’s say I’m 2nd in the queue. 1st place is looking to overtake but can’t yet, because he’s driving a normal car and the straights are too small.

Speedy man comes from behind in his fast car, passes me in a small space and waits behind 1st. The next gap comes, there’s space for only two cars, they both go. I’m left behind, when I should have been through. That’s the last overtaking spot for 5 miles.

You’re totally right molegrips – the driver in the fast car really should have been a mind reader and predicted that you have the moral right to be ahead.

Sometimes an overtake is stages is the only way if you’re going to pass a big queue of traffic to a clear road ahead. Many people will dawdle and not get on with overtaking so if you sat at the back and waited your turn then you’d never pass. A staged overtake allows you to overtake safely and quickly. I do this when necessary and if it makes your piss boil then I really couldn’t give two hoots I’m afraid.

Very unlikely situation in reality though isn’t it? Only once ever happened to me in almost 350,000 miles of driving. Not really worth getting your knickers in a twist about. I guess the only solution like we have said before is perhaps to either chill out and accept it as a normal part of driving, or buy a faster car.

the guy behind me knew i wanted to overtake, but took ‘my’* opportunity

Very strange! What makes it ‘YOUR’ opportunity? Do you own the road perhaps?

I haven’t read all of this, but you lot are just ignoring or misunderstanding molgrips’ point and then presenting your OWN misunderstanding of it as his problem!

Bossing your way down a moving queue of traffic without consideration for where you are going to re-enter the queue nor consideration of the other drivers in that queue is crap, selfish and dangerous driving. If you can see where you are going to get back in, and you can see that it is safe to get there then fine, but don’t go bowling down the wrong side of the road if there is a pretty good chance that one of the cars ahead of you is going to block your safe route.