but there is no getting away from the fact that it’s a fair chunk heavier.

Yep, most bits of bike are getting a bit heavier I think, and I’d be surprised that a noticeable decline is stuff breaking isn’t partly a result. This forum (not so long ago) was filled to brim with people trying to justify (or complain about) why the £million pound part they just bought that was bust again.

I think we now have bikes that are fit for purpose. Strava (your PR notwithstanding 🙂 ) be damned

I’m not particularly wedded to aggressive tread patterns in the summer and I like the feeling that a tyre is rolling faster (he says, in the process of fitting a 2.6 Vittoria Mazza) but I do find in summer I want more puncture resistance. And I really don’t want to have to increase pressure over what feels right, just to avoid punctures. So I don’t really strive to get the weight down. 27.5×2.35 Super Gravity Rock Razor is just a shade under 1kg, so fast tread and mid range weight. I’m hoping that’ll be a nice compromise for me on the back. On the front I don’t worry about the drag, so I don’t think something like a minion is a great hardship either. Horses for courses I suppose.

This thread makes me feel a little guilty though that I fitted a Magic Mary and Rock Razor to a (fairly novice) friend’s hardtail. He’s loving the grip on <20psi and they’re not slower than the cheap rubber the bike came with but that Mary will be a chunk draggier than some alternatives and I suppose we could’ve gone 200g lighter per tyre.

I really hate heavy, grippy tyres on a bike. I’m happy to put up with some fragility and be slightly slower down things, to be generally happier overall. I do wonder if part of the reason e-bikes have become so popular is due to the massive changes in tyres size and weight.

Previously, you really had to be (and please forgive the expression) “man enough” to run really soft compound, wide tyres on a trail bike as they just suck the life out of a significant percentage of the ride. This got even worse as tyres got wider and people wanted more grip for going downhill faster. We’re now at the point that current trail tyres are about 20-30% heavier than DH tyres were about 5 years ago which makes them difficult to pedal all day. Uplifts started the trend, and now ebikes have completed the circle. You get all the downhill speed/grip with none of the drawbacks, but for a clockwork bike, it’s just bloody hard work and finding light, grippy trail tyres isn’t easy these days.

I really like Specialized CONTROL tyres for this reason, but the range is shrinking and the weight still keeps increasing.

This thread makes me feel a little guilty though that I fitted a Magic Mary

Because that’s what STW does. Its like the old “build em up, tear em down” approach the NME had in the early 90s.

On a new build I went from a 2.3-Shorty 2.3-DHR combo to slightly bigger 2.5-Shorty 2.4-DHR.

I hated it felt like I was peddling through porridge, wasn’t sure if it was bike or tyre, but as I had them spare I went back to 2.3 and got my zip back. Not massive difference but enough to suck the fun out, I can see why ebikes are appealing with fashion for big tyres. When things are dry I’ll break out a 2.3-HighRoller 2.25-Crossmark combo which is even zippier.

Don’t get me wrong. I have nothing against a Magic Mary (in whatever compound). They are great tyres and if they suit how and where you ride that’s great. But a super gravity 2.4 does weigh more than the 5″ fatbike tyres I used to use. The ones that everyone thought were comically large and must be really heavy. Well they were comically large but it turns out not that heavy.

I think @Daffy nails it. Mountain biking seems to be moving more and more towards a downhill oriented sport, with increased use of uplifts and motors. That’s obviously what the market wants and that’s fine. There are still products that cater to those of us with more of an xc or all day trail bent. You just need to be careful and realise that the make and model tyre you bought a few years ago may now weigh a fair bit more.

Good to see that you’ve worked out that the Flare Max isn’t a bad climber 🙂

Early in lockdown I decided to relook at my bikes and where I ride them, and decided to ‘throw out’ the ‘allrounder’ approach. So I lightened off my HT and just used it for XC/trail riding; put super sticky and super stable Michelin Enduro tyres on my Flare Max and just used it for the steep, rough trails and used my gravel bike for mixed routes from home.

I’m lucky in that I live in the Tweed Valley, so have a vast amount of trails from natural right up to full-on DH/Enduro and trail centres as well. So I decide what I want to do, and pick the bike to suit the route.

Tyres-wise though there’s a limit to how light I’ll go on the HT, as it’s still rocky everywhere and I don’t want punctures – so it’s running a worn-out Mary and a Minion SS.

i must say having recently purchased a couple of 2.6×29 marys to replace the old marys they have got heavier for the same tyre as well imo.

i am loving the grip. Its great but my god its hard.

When I got my Scandal I stuck some heavy duty WTB tyres on it, which made it a fun bike to play on some pretty serious trails. However, I found it was always getting left in the shed in favour of my Sentry which did that kind of thing much better. After one 35 mile ride on the Scandal, I wanted to get some faster rolling tyres on, so on went some Vittoria Mezcals. Knocked nearly 1kg off the weight and it feels (to me!) like an e-bike going up hills now, very fast and light. Downside, it’s decidedly not fun on lots of trails I love, bigger rocky drop offs feel awful and pressures have to be stupidly highly to stop them squirming coming into hard corners on steep downhills. I may try some inserts to see if that helps.

Overall, for me, my Sentry with Minion DHF front and HD addix rear is a much better all round bike, although I’m going to try and throw in a few more faster, but milder, rides for the Scandal. 🙂

The older 2.35 x 29 MM was 1142g and the new 2.4 is 1320g so yes I agree it is going up.

But – I only really notice this on road. Once i am off road then all the resistance (other than gravity obviously) seems to come from the terrain. So yes, if a real chunk of the route has lots of road in it, then go lighter, but if its all off road then i think the difference is negligible.

Plus to get any significant weight down you are now having to look at xc tyres.

Same as Daffy – I prefer the bike to feel sprightly and am probably always a bit ‘under tyred’ for the descents and really rough stuff. For where I ride 95% of the time though it’s fine.

I think once a bike is rolling you don’t perceive much of the tyre weight differences, what you notice is the hysteresis losses in the tread and casing. However, in many tyres, increasing mass goes hand in hand with increasing hysteresis losses – and then stickier compounds exacerbate that.

Interesting thread this. I find myself agreeing with the idea that being over-tyred is a thing that I’m now guilty of especially on my hardtail.
Like steamtb above I’ve got a sentry but I’m still on the standard tyres wtb trail boss 2.4 rear vigilante 2.6 front both in the high grip tough compound and there is no shortage of grip but they are draggy on the ups. Fine for winch and plummit stuff but not so nice on pedally flow trails. That’s not what the bike is designed for though.
After I got this bike it really showed up the shortcomings of the hardtail I was riding so that has morphed from a Xc bike with 100mm fork and 29×2.25 trail boss front and rear into a 64 head angle 140 forked bike and I chose vee flow snaps 2.6 f 2.35 r. Both marketed as ebike tyres. Plus rimpacts on the back of both bikes. Partly this is because riding buddies have similarly built bikes I must admit.
So like steamtb the hardtail is now built for similar trails as the fs and living in Sheffield it’s great on my local cheeky stuff which is often steep and moist. Good in the dark peak too.
It’s obvious that it’s a real slog on pedally hard pack though. Trails like cooking on gas at lady cannings are just horrible on either bike compared to when I used to ride 26ers with purgatory control 2.35 or hr2 2.35 on the back. It just feels so much harder to pedal and keep speed up.
I think I might put the trail boss 2.25 on the back and lose the rimpact. It’s a tough and fast rolling compound but will probably tear a sidewall first time out and regret it straight away! 🙄

I’m also a huge fan of the Nobby Nic / Racing Ralph and run this combo year round.

The big problem with the old Nic tread pattern (even the Addix version) is that it has a propensity to wash out on off-camber stuff and especially on loose over hardpack trails. This I think is due to the gaps in the tread pattern. A very fast rolling tyre considering the fact that it has full size treads, but somewhat unpredictable.

The newest, redesigned Nic is like night and day. I’ve just fitted one in the 27.5 / 2.35″ guise to my Giant Anthem and the thing sticks like glue on trails where I’ve had problems with washouts on the old tread. Some reviews have said that the increased grip comes at the expense of rolling resistance. I can’t say that I’ve noticed any increase though, and I’m still beating PRs on Strava. However, I haven’t done any 30+ mile rides on it yet so will need to see how it goes. In general, I’m very happy with this new tyre and it suits the XC / light trail riding that I do.

There’s a couple of negatives though. The new versions have been beefed up somewhat. My previous gen Nic in the same size and compound (Addix Speedgrip) only weighed 716g when new. The new one (Super Ground / Speedgrip) weighs 870g. I’m happy to live with that as there’s obviously a lot of extra rubber in there and the snakeskin protection now runs through the whole tyre, not just the sidewalls. Also, whereas Schwalbe tyres have always sized up exactly as advertised, my new one measures (sidewall to sidewall on 25mm ID rims) only 2.30″. We’ll see if this stretches out over the next few rides.

Also, the tread pattern and general carcass shape seem more optimised for 30mm id rims compared to the old version.

I don’t like big heavy tyres. They suck all the fun out of riding.
For a new build I’m doing I have purposely gone for light weight xc tyres (vittoria barzo) and hopefully ill get away with them. I have added rimpact to the wheels which add a 100 grams to see if they allow me to run a light xc tyre. I have also gone carbon rims for lightness.

A frame can weigh anything and I don’t notice it. Wheels and tyres are what I feel and judge when riding.

chiefgrooveguru
Free Member
I think once a bike is rolling you don’t perceive much of the tyre weight differences, what you notice is the hysteresis losses in the tread and casing. However, in many tyres, increasing mass goes hand in hand with increasing hysteresis losses – and then stickier compounds exacerbate that.

On a road bike this is almost certainly true, but on a MTB, especially on climbs/switchbacks/undulating and twisty stuff, you’re constantly having to accelerate that extra weight and even more so on very technical climbs. It all adds up to an energy sapping ride. Think about it, every time you go to ride up a rock, you have to spin-up an extra KG to get over it and it actually slows down at a similar rate as a lighter one due to gravity negating momentum.

It’d be interesting to see power rates and heart rates on a climb at a constant time for ascent, but different tyres.

I have never regretted fitting lighter tyres, but then I don’t spend my time riding down sketchy, rocky off-piste trails or downhill tracks. Coed y Brenin is about as gnar as I ever get, and Ralphs or at most Nics are fine round there. Most people are over biked and over tyred most of the time – they might be happy with that trade off for the few times they actually need it, but I’m not. That’s not a criticism, just an observation that what different people like is different.

Think about it, every time you go to ride up a rock, you have to spin-up an extra KG to get over it and it actually slows down at a similar rate as a lighter one due to gravity negating momentum.

The total weight of the bike and rider is typically in the 70 to 100 kg range. That extra kg is less than 2% of the total. Yes, heavy tyres do make the bike feel sluggish, but IME people vastly overestimate the effect on speed compared with the effect of rubber compound and knob shape.

“Think about it, every time you go to ride up a rock, you have to spin-up an extra KG to get over it and it actually slows down at a similar rate as a lighter one due to gravity negating momentum.”

The first half is right. Not sure about your physics on the second half! Greater rotating mass takes more work to accelerate but then it has more inertia to resist deceleration. If you’re braking lots then you lose that energy but otherwise the extra work you had to put in helps to keep you rolling.

I really do think rotating mass is something that affects feel a lot more than it affects performance.

Yes, heavy tyres do make the bike feel sluggish, but IME people vastly overestimate the effect on speed compared with the effect of rubber compound and knob shape.

Yep. I have a Magic Mary on one bike and a Verdict Wet on another. The VW is a complete drag when used for anything other than winter mud. The VW is also lighter.

The total weight of the bike and rider is typically in the 70 to 100 kg range. That extra kg is less than 2% of the total. Yes, heavy tyres do make the bike feel sluggish, but IME people vastly overestimate the effect on speed compared with the effect of rubber compound and knob shape.

But surely if you can feel it, you’re not feeling it through your finger tips, you’re feeling it through your legs, through the effort needed to shift it. If it’s THAT noticeable to your legs, even on the flat, it’s going to be bloody noticeable on a climb and have a significant cumulative effect at the end of a ride where you’ve had to do that hundreds of times.

“If it’s THAT noticeable to your legs, even on the flat, it’s going to be bloody noticeable on a climb and have a significant cumulative effect at the end of a ride where you’ve had to do that hundreds of times.”

It’s not as simple as that. If each pedal stroke takes you further then it doesn’t matter if it’s harder. If the first few pedal strokes are harder but the rest are easier because of the increased flywheel effect then it balances out, etc etc

Humans are incredibly good at feeling tiny differences but incredibly bad at analysing their effects accurately.

Part of the reason why it took me so long to get round to changing tyres is that I didn’t really feel it being any slower. It was just a combination of Strava telling me that I was consistently slower up longer climbs and a feeling of being unable to do (or at least enjoy) the longer rides that I used to enjoy. Despite other measures (such as Zwift) suggesting that I was fitter than I had been in the past I still tended to put this down to a loss of fitness with age.

The tyre weight issue is an interesting one. I’ve mentioned my old fatbike a few times, but that still holds my record time on a few climbs, despite having tyres that weighed 1,290g each. So there is more to it than just weight I suspect.

Interesting to hear that the new Nobby Nic has more grip than the old one and can still be had in an 870g version. Thanks @devash

I’m still somewhat horrified by how heavy modern tyres are.

I remember when “fast” tyres we’re around the 400g mark, and budget tyres about 600g. How over a kilo is acceptable on any bike that has to be pedalled up and along as well as down is beyond me.

I’m a big fan of fast rolling tyres too, but then I enjoy getting out and covering as much ground as possible, and not smashing through massive rock gardens, and my local terrain is slop in the winter so I ride on the road!

I think once a bike is rolling you don’t perceive much of the tyre weight differences, what you notice is the hysteresis losses in the tread and casing. However, in many tyres, increasing mass goes hand in hand with increasing hysteresis losses – and then stickier compounds exacerbate that.

That’s an interesting point and would explain why I set some of my best climbing times on those 5” fatbike tyres. It’s not so much the weight as the suppleness of the tyre, but the two often go hand in hand. These heavier trail/enduro tyres have a stiffer carcass, which is what you want to resist the tyre folding over under hard cornering at low pressures, but it means a lot more hysteresis losses.

Plus there is the compound of course. The old Nic that I’ve put on uses the same pacestar compound and the same snakeskin carcass as those jumbo Jim fatbike tyres. I guess that just rolls a whole lot better than the soft compound and heavier carcass on the Mary. Maybe that is more important than the 375g weight saving. I don’t know.

Humans are incredibly good at feeling tiny differences but incredibly bad at analysing their effects accurately.

It is almost like you need to actually test it using timing and power meters isn’t it….

So yesterday I did a bit of Googling and I think there is about 100g difference between my trail boss 2.5 tough fast rolling and my vee flow snap “ebike” tyre- quite soft compound. I’ll swap them over and see if there is a noticeable difference on hardpack pedally flow trails. If their is I suspect it’s the compound not the tyre weight.

It will be compound combined with different tread profile. I have just swapped from a Maxxis Pace on rear to a Maxxis Forekaster. Same width and pretty much same weight. Definitely feels slower on tarmac and about the same off road other than I am not sliding as much. Just means I will avoid tarmac even more which is only a good thing.

I’m still somewhat horrified by how flimsy and tear/puncture prone tyres used to be.

How having to worry about slashing a casing, pinch flatting, burping air or puncturing easily is acceptable on any bike that has to be ridden off road at speed is beyond me.

The other side of the coin of course!

Humans are incredibly good at feeling tiny differences but incredibly bad at analysing their effects accurately.

Though feel is what we’re working with every time we interact with the bike… 😄

Swapped out a 2.35 Hans dampf for a 2.8 dhf on the front of my solo running a minion ss out back. Didn’t feel any more hard work to pedal but feels like a slightly unruly rocket on descents. Fun!

I changed out wheels and tyres on the + hardtail, saved 800g overall (retained 2.8dhf front and went to reckon rear from dhr), and it transformed the bike in to something much more enjoyable both up and down. Buy nice wheels!

I was surprised that my Whyte s120c came with ‘fast’ rather than ‘tough’ tyres given the marketing waffle about short travel enduro blah blah blah. Suits my local lockdown trail-centre rides perfectly though.
I’ll either have to mince once I’m allowed back into the Peaks, or put something chunkier on the other wheels.

I’ve been dragging a boat anchor around on my enduro bike (the one I race enduros on). There are notable race stages where I’ve given fullgas (with decent FTP and sprint power) and lost large chunks of time. Yup. The flatter stages. Perhaps I should think about how the time deficit from one pedally stage skews the result more than the steep technical stages (unless you end up in a bush).

Because of more general economising, I haven’t been buying tyres just because. My Norco (2018 Range) came on double boat anchors (e*thirteen). I had a few front tyre options to swap on for varying conditions but the rear has been a fixture of lurking evil. Over the winter I’ve had a Hillbilly Grid up front. Last weekend I decided to get the Wild Enduro out of the spares box for the front, the Hillbilly went to the back and the anchor went to the bin. Lo and behold the bike has some liveliness.

On the same race day that the e*thirteen’s drag factor cost me time, it survived being ridden down a stage punctured and sealed up fuss free with a bacon strip at the bottom. I got on the podium that day despite or because of my tyre choices – hard to tell.

My experience is that tyres that come up square are draggy. Stiffer carcasses are draggy. Sticky compounds are draggy. The e*thirteens had it all. If there was any camber on the trail, they’d feel like you had the brakes on. The square shape seems worse still with wider rim widths – that other modern fad.

I’m pretty close to knowing what tyre I want on the front of my bike. I’ve got much less clue about rear tyres. I’ve been experimenting with Rimpacts on my eMTB but I feel I’m a long way from finding my ideal for the clockwork bike yet.

That’s an interesting point and would explain why I set some of my best climbing times on those 5” fatbike tyres. It’s not so much the weight as the suppleness of the tyre, but the two often go hand in hand.

I imagine that the extra traction from the wide tyre would help to propel you forward more quickly.

as for normal mtb’s i think it’s the tread that makes the biggest difference to the speed of a tyre.

These heavier trail/enduro tyres have a stiffer carcass, which is what you want to resist the tyre folding over under hard cornering at low pressures, but it means a lot more hysteresis losses.

on the other hand, you can use lower pressures (in theory improving traction and rolling resistance) and the side walls will be strong enough to resist pinch flats.

edit: this is a great topic. i have heavy and light sets of wheels with complimenting tyres. i now find myself switching the tyres between the wheels and agonizing over the sweet spot!

I love spring when I get to take the winter knobblies off. The bike is noticably faster. Up and down. Even the ebike.

I generally like a heavier rear tyre but there is definitely a fine balance.

I’m not keen on the trend for mahoosive tyres. They feel horrible to ride (I have them on the eeb and I have to run them HARD to stop the squirm). On the ht a 2.3 on the rear is the max I like unless in going to a bike park on it.

Less knobblies = more speed = more sideways = more fun. Especially when it rains.

Biking eh everything is a compromise.

Ideally I would change tyres to suit conditions and to suit the majority of terrain types being ridden on the day. Apart from racers, who can be arsed with that!

Remember the days when people used to ride around on single ply 120 TPI tyres (thankfully that’s over) and wonder why they had about four punctures per ride on rocky trails! You can still buy those tyres if you live somewhere, where they work.

But yeah I reckon some people are using dual ply and inserts they don’t really need and too wide a tyre that aren’t as efficient but more comfortable!

It is one of the downsides of tubeless. It’s a faff and expensive to change tyres often so don’t bother. If I had tubes I reckon I would change on the day to suit the terrain/conditions

interesting to see the different sides of the coin.

It seems that people complain about getting punctures. Manufacturer comes out with heavier duty tyre, people complain about weight.

i must admit though that my stumpy feels a drag with thicker rear tyres on. however they are better damped and this makes it feel safer (for me) so i enjoy it more. As people say horses for corses.
We all want the grip of a mary with the rolling speed and weight of a semi slick.

Over on one of the ladies mtb fb groups, someone was asking about tyres. The HT she just bought came 650b x 2.8. Having liked the Mary’s on her ebike she just stuck some 2.8” MMs on her new HT and was asking why it was so slow to ride up hill. We looked it up and she had put 2.5 kg of tyres on her HT – plus the tread and lack of engine – no wonder it felt slow. Does make you realise how easily it is to become over-tyred and pay for it as result.

So to bring this thread back…
Following a PSA on here I recently bought a fast light tyre- Vitoria mezcal 29×2.6
Put this on my hardtail yesterday. Replaced a vee flow snap 29×2.35 with “ebike ready” or something similar on the sidewall. Going by the internet the new tyre is 278g lighter. And a much faster rolling tread pattern suitable only for dry trails.
Went in the same back wheel, tubeless with rimpact still in as I’m a clumsy oaf. 23psi
Went up to a local spot with man made flowy trails. (Lady cannings)
One particular strava segment I’ve done 90-100 times. Go a PR first time down. Did two runs and both within a second of each other (2 minute runs). This is 10 seconds faster than my usual time for the last year in this bike. Last time I went this fast was on a lighter xc type build with fast tyres again. 2 years ago.
Then I lost pressure due lack of sealant and had to go home…
Anyway. Fast light tyres are faster on the right trail. I’m sold.

roverpig
Full Member

That’s an interesting point and would explain why I set some of my best climbing times on those 5” fatbike tyres. It’s not so much the weight as the suppleness of the tyre, but the two often go hand in hand

Fatbike drag is really interesting I think because it acts fairly different to normal tyres- it ramps up much more with speed, which isn’t something I’ve ever really felt with a normal tyre. Some sort of threshold effect where the hysteresis overcomes the tyre’s ability to get out of its own way and instead of just sucking up power with its deformation under weight like normal, you’re basically pushing against the tyre’s lag and creating something like a bow wave. I’m sure it happens with all tyres at some point but man is it is a thing with fatbikes,suddenly that really fast low gradient trailcentre section that’s usually a sprint is a drag.

But it’s not generally an issue when climbing for the same reason and suddenly people are impressed by your awesome power, so, don’t tell anyone.