Viewing 40 posts - 1 through 40 (of 80 total)
  • Over-tyred
  • roverpig
    Full Member

    Some of you may recall that I’ve been trying to solve a bit of a mystery with my Flaremax, namely why it seems to be so slow uphill. The great god Strava reliably informs me that I’m consistently slower up hills that I was on various other bikes in the past, despite all the other indicators suggesting that, if anything, I’m a bit fitter than I was.

    At the end of the last thread on this I was looking suspiciously at the shock. I tried putting more air in and giving it a service, but to no avail.

    Tyres were always an obvious place to look, but I was reluctant to buy a new one and then find I didn’t like it. The RockRazor (2.35 speedgrip) and Magic Mary (2.35 soft) are also a fairly standard combo for a bike like this. But I was clearing out the shed last week and found some tyres that I’d forgotten I had. These were a Racing Ralph and a Nobby Nic. Both 2.35″ and in the old pacestar compound. So, I figured I might as well try them.

    First surprise was the weight. The Ralph only saved 110g over the RockRazor, but the Nic saved a surprising 375g over the Mary. So that was 475g of rotating weight dropped and presumably a faster compound on the front to boot.

    The ride at the weekend only included one decent climb that I’ve done multiple times, but I was a full 2 min and 17s faster than I was on the same bike with the older tyres last week. Even more surprising was that I knocked 1min 15s off my previous PR set back in 2014. Result.

    Although that was just one climb it was also really noticeable how much fresher I felt at the end of the ride than I had felt on a similar ride the previous week. Riding up and down mountains had basically become fun again rather than just a slog.

    Of course, in theory, I’d also lost a lot of grip and I think I could feel this, but not as much as I expected. I think the reason for that is pretty simple, I just don’t ride that hard. I enjoy the challenge of getting down a descent, but care very little about the speed going down and would far rather ride something slowly and in control than fast and out of control. So I doubt I’m getting close to the limits of the Nic let alone the Mary.

    Now, to be clear, I’m not recommending that anyone else does this. I’m sure that most people using a Mary (or similar) need that grip and a lighter tyre would ruin the bike for them. But it’s worth being honest about how you ride and what you really need. If you don’t need heavy tyres they can really suck the joy out of a hilly XC ride. It was also a bit of a shock to me how much heavier my tyres had become over the years without me really noticing. I used to think my old 26″ Hans Dampf was a decently aggressive front tyre, but at 765g it now seems positively anorexic.

    roverpig
    Full Member

    Just had a quick browse on the Schwalbe site and the lightest Magic Mary 29er I can find (2.4″ super trail casing) weighs 1220g. That is only 70g lighter that the 4.8″ Jumbo Jim tyres I used to run on my fatbike. If you go for the super gravity casing they weigh more than the fatbike tyres.

    Wookster
    Full Member

    That’s Interesting!! I’ve got a 2.5 on my MTB, which isn’t ever going to be lightweight XC bike!) and a Ive though about a 2.3 for the front. It’s just a a fair few Bob for me to spend on a tyre on on a hunch! 🤦🏻‍♂️

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    Superficial
    Free Member

    Your ‘heavy’ set (Mary + Rock Razor) is my lightweight summer set 🙂

    roverpig
    Full Member

    It’s just a a fair few Bob for me to spend on a tyre on on a hunch!

    Yes, that’s why it took me so long to get round to trying something so obvious really. I didn’t want to blow £50 on a lighter tyre and then find that I’d totally ruined the bike.

    Your ‘heavy’ set (Mary + Rock Razor) is my lightweight summer set

    Yes, it’s very much horses for courses isn’t it. If you ride them the way they were designed to be ridden (or you are fit enough not to notice the extra weight/drag) then they are great tyres. I was just surprised that “normal” trail tyres had got so much heavier over the past 5 years or so. But I guess that’s because “normal” trail riding has changed too. If we are riding longer slacker bikes designed to go faster and plough through stuff more easily then it stands to reason that we are going to need heavier tyres.

    thols2
    Full Member

    I like the Racing Ralph as a rear tyre in the dry on reasonably hard surfaces. It’s much grippier than I expected. In the wet, different story, but that’s not what it’s designed for.

    DezB
    Free Member

    Mary is perfect for things like BPW, but since I put a Spesh Eliminator GRID on the front and BPW is out of the question (boohoo!) I don’t miss ol Mary.

    deltacharlie72
    Free Member

    oikeith
    Full Member

    As someone who for several years ran MM front and rear, having the Big Betty on the back has made a noticeable improvement to rolling resistance, I’ve actually just picked another BB to try on the front to see if it improves the rolling more, I’ve found no difference between the MM and BB for grip and braking on the rear so far.

    thisisnotaspoon
    Free Member

    Yup, I’ve got massive #ENDURO tyres as that’s what the bike came with. But realistically for Swinley April-September a semi (or actual) slick works really well on the rear, and the front doesn’t need much more. It’s probably even counter productive most of the time as there’s only a handful of loose sections where any tyre will dig in.

    Yet everyone has DHFs or MM as part of the uniform.

    Northwind
    Full Member

    Mary’s a brilliant tyre but it’s way on the spiky end of “allrounder”, much further and it’d be basically in the same camp as a Shorty or similar. It’s kind of become a default choice I guess because it can do pretty much anything, but yep a lot of the time it’s too much and sometimes it’s not even as grippy as a less spiky, more traditional allrounder is.

    cynic-al
    Free Member

    From memory you are just looking at climb times, no power or HR data, correct?

    agis2012
    Free Member

    This thread is very much of interest to me. I have recently acquired a Bird Aeris with a 2.3 Maxxis DHF Minion on the front and a 2.3 Maxxis Aggressor on the back and want a set of new tires for the summer and because both tires have thorn holes.

    Purely for looks as the Aeris looks undertired on the 2.3 Maxxis I was going to get a 2.6 Schawalbe Magic Mary on the Front and a 2.4 Hans Dampf on the rear….but I dont want the climbing prowess to be hampered…

    I am nowhere near the limit of the DHF Minion at the moment so are there any fairly lightweight trail tires at 2.6 and 2.4 width that wont add too much extra weight??

    roverpig
    Full Member

    One thing that makes me laugh is that people used to look at my fatbike with its great big tractor tyres and assume that it was heavy and slow. In fact it was neither. Nowadays lots of people are riding round in trail bikes with heavier tyres than that fatbike and nobody bats an eyelid.

    From memory you are just looking at climb times, no power or HR data, correct?

    That’s right and I’m certainly a long way from proving anything at the moment. Personally, rather that trying to control all the variables (which is almost impossible) I prefer to collect enough samples that everything else averages out. So I’m pretty confident that the data I have strongly suggests that the FlareMax with the previous tyres is slower up hills than any of my previous bikes as that’s based on hundreds of samples up dozens of hills. I can’t really say that knocking 475g off the tyre weight accounts for all of the difference that I saw in that one climb. In fact I’m sure it doesn’t and only time will tell what the real effect is. But looking back at all the tyres that I’ve used on various mountain bikes over the past ten years there is a general trend of them getting heavier and heavier despite the fact that I’m not really riding trails that are much (if any) tougher.

    w00dster
    Full Member

    I used to notice it going from winter tyres (Shorty and a Minion) to Bontrager XR5 in a 2.3.
    I always waited until the trails had dried and were running harder.
    The biggest difference was being able to keep up with friends who used to drop me on climbs.
    The bike always felt livelier with the lighter tyres, but there’s something to be said for the front grip from the Shorty when it’s muddy.

    bjhedley
    Full Member

    I was always amazed at the amount of slop/clag/tech pro XC riders seems to tackle with relative confort on effectively a semi-slick. Then I rode a 40mm G-one around some local single track on my old gravel bike and a lightbulb moment happened. Had way more grip than I thought possible, but so much more roll too.

    Looking at going full XC for the new Sherpa when it arrives, for late spring – autumnn anyway (tho probably with a cushcore xc, still paranoid!)

    kerley
    Free Member

    I can’t really say that knocking 475g off the tyre weight accounts for all of the difference that I saw in that one climb

    It didn’t, unless the climb was many hours long. Knocking over a minute off a PB is not going to happen just because of 500g tyre difference as you have accepted anyway and after 10 more rides of the same climb it won’t suggest that.

    DezB
    Free Member

    I used to use Maxxis Larsens back in the 26″ days, they were damn good all year, except for a on the slippiest mud.

    joebristol
    Full Member

    Purely for looks as the Aeris looks undertired on the 2.3 Maxxis I was going to get a 2.6 Schawalbe Magic Mary on the Front and a 2.4 Hans Dampf on the rear….but I dont want the climbing prowess to be hampered…

    I am nowhere near the limit of the DHF Minion at the moment so are there any fairly lightweight trail tires at 2.6 and 2.4 width that wont add too much extra weight??

    My Aether now has a 2.5 DHF on the front and 2.4wt Dissector on the back. The DHF has been my front tyre for 2-3 seasons of the 4 for a number of years now. When it gets a bit too sloppy for that I’ve got a 2.6” Hillbilly for one bike and a 2.6” Magic Mary for the other at the front.

    The dissector is new – it replaces an aggressor effectively – it seemed to roll pretty nicely yesterday on a 40km / 975m of climbing ride I did. It also kept going through mud better than I expected.
    Although I do have a 2.6” Slaughter to try when it gets really dry.

    My hardtail has a Forekaster 2.6” on the back – that has also surpassed my expectations in recent mud and rolls fairly fast.

    jam-bo
    Full Member

    just swapped from my winter shorty/minion combo to my summer ardent/ikon combo.

    bike feels positively spritely. I’m sure I’ll regret it when the weather turns later in the week.

    roverpig
    Full Member

    You are quite right @kerley There are various online calculators that can probably tell you what knocking 500g off your tyre weight should save you on a climb. I’ve not looked but I’m sure it’s much less than the 10% I saw on that single climb. Of course it’s not just weight. The pacestar Nic has less drag (grip) than the soft Mary too, but I’m sure you are right. Given a few more data points, the difference will be a lot less. The interesting thing will be to see whether it persists at all.

    There is certainly a psychological factor at work here too. A bike/wheel that feels more lively does encourage me to push harder and there is a point at which things become enough of a chore that they stop being fun and I “give in”.

    While the PR was nice, what was more encouraging was that I enjoyed the ride. Recently I’ve been finding that rides over about 20 miles and 3,000′ of climbing have just felt like a slog, which is annoying as they were the rides I liked best in the past. Last weekend’s ride was only 18 miles and 2,400′ of climb, but I finished feeling fresh and up for more, which was encouraging. But as you say, only time will tell.

    mboy
    Free Member

    There’s definitely something to be said for picking the right tyres for the job… In the current climes of people deliberately overbiking themselves for most of their riding (often with electric assistance), the default to grippiest tyres that they can find for all conditions can make things a real slog at times if you’re not going full bore all the time.

    I run a Ralph/Ray combo on my XC bike in the summer (albeit with a tyre insert in the rear cos I’m still fat and clumsy), and that setup is a hell of a lot quicker to get up to speed than a Mary/Betty combo (although the Betty is remarkably fast rolling for what it is) on mt trail bike.

    Got the latest Nobby Nic in Super Trail Addix Grip compound (orange stripe) on the rear of my trail bike at the moment in place of Big Betty… It’s quick! Not quite Rock Razor fast, but very quick for what it is. Grip is good too, not quite the edge bite or braking grip of a Betty, but a good step up from the old Nobby Nic.

    nickc
    Full Member

    Did a well known route the other day and was also surprised how much more draggy the Shorty on the front was. (glad I had it, it was horrendous conditions) but lordy that’s a draggy tyre. I’m always surprised at the difference a lighter tyre makes

    Props on your Strava KOM though, a minute out of any climb is cause for celebration. Regardless of the tyre combo, you’re clearly doing something right in training, well done!

    kerley
    Free Member

    There is certainly a psychological factor at work here too. A bike/wheel that feels more lively does encourage me to push harder and there is a point at which things become enough of a chore that they stop being fun and I “give in”.

    Agree with that. I don’t even bother trying to sprint up road hills on MTB whereas on a bike with road tyres there seems a lot more point to it.

    roverpig
    Full Member

    Thanks @nickc Not a KOM though. Those days are long gone. I have to content myself with PRs these days. But beating a time that I set in 2014 is two fingers at the grim reaper.

    cloggy
    Full Member

    Yes but it’s not just weight but also tyre compound.

    funkmasterp
    Full Member

    When I had a Trek Stache running with a 3.25 Vee Bulldozer on the front and a Vitorria Bombolloni 3.0 on the back I was utterly amazed how well it climbed and handled in general. I expected it to be draggy and slow and it was neither.

    chiefgrooveguru
    Full Member

    I bet you’re pedalling harder because you’re feeling the bike respond more positively, less like you’re fighting inertia. I’m sure this is also the reason I pedal harder on my ebike because it bloody flies when you put some effort in, and also why I like how my hardtail responds so instantly.

    Cotic recently started offering some much lighter / quicker rolling tyres than their usual WTB options, on the grounds that they’re too much tyre for quick a few places/riders. Tyres are a big part of how a bike behaves!

    roverpig
    Full Member

    Yes, I’d agree with both of those points. Knocking a minute off a ten minute climb isn’t simply down to weight or drag and means that I put more effort in. But why did I put more effort in? Part of the answer is because it felt like I was getting some reward.

    Tyres can certainly transform a bike and I’m certainly guilty of feeling constrained in my tyre choice. A trail bike should have trail tyres, but what is a trail bike? When I bought my 2013 Five I thought that was an aggressive trail bike and at the time so did most people. Now its short reach and 67 degree head angle makes it look more like an XC bike. Anyway, the point is that I should be picking the tyres to suit how I actually ride and not how I think I should ride.

    mboy
    Free Member

    Anyway, the point is that I should be picking the tyres to suit how I actually ride and not how I think I should ride.

    Nail hit firmly and squarely on the head there… 👍🏻

    I was tempted to fit some beefier tyres on my XC bike, I know it would make it more capable. But I bought that bike specifically to get some decent XC miles in on it, and whilst I can’t get the same edge bite out of a Ray/Ralph that I can a Mary/Betty combo, they’re more capable in the rough stuff than they look, and are significantly lighter and faster elsewhere.

    matt_outandabout
    Full Member

    Anyway, the point is that I should be picking the tyres to suit how I actually ride and not how I think I should ride.

    I agree.

    I would say the same for a lot of bikes/bike components.

    TroutWrestler
    Free Member

    I fitted a 2.8 Vigilante on my bike today. That is phat grippy rubber.

    Northwind
    Full Member

    roverpig
    Full Member

    Anyway, the point is that I should be picking the tyres to suit how I actually ride and not how I think I should ride.

    Yeeesss. Mostly. Unless you actually plan to start riding how you think you should ride, in which case having a bit more tyre is probably a good idea (especially if taking on new challenges, you don’t want to have any extra worries or handicaps). So I guess, I’d say keep ’em in case.

    roverpig
    Full Member

    I guess that’s the point @Northwind I’ve kept these tyres on thinking that next week I might ride something that justifies them, but meanwhile they just suck some of the fun out of what I actually do ride. I must admit that I didn’t realise they were quite as heavy as they are either. But they’ll sit in the shed now, so they are still there if I do summon up the courage to ride those tougher lines.

    ads678
    Full Member

    I was running a Hans Dampf up front on my Solaris and changed it for a MM for winter, and moved the HD to the back. I’d started riding some more gnar stuff again so wanted more front end grip. Bike was Instantly more sluggish and felt much slowwer on the flat or uphill. Down was fine but anything flat or up was a chore.

    In the end I didn’t end up using it much over winter, so it was a bit pointless and I need to change the tyres back round now its drying up again.

    tourismo
    Full Member

    I know what the op means. I have a Flaremax too and it came with WTB Vigilantes with the tough casing. They’re 1200g, so the swap to Bontrager XR4 front and XR3 rear was very noticeable, though I think it may have had as much to do with a decrease in rolling resistance as it has with weight. They don’t lack grip and the more rounded profile makes the bike more lively. I’m not especially heavy or or fast so can get away with lighter tyres, though I did puncture the rear twice last year on rocky trails but I was probably being a little optimistic with how low I could go on pressure.

    roverpig
    Full Member

    I’ve just had a look back at some of the tyres that I used to ride and it would seem that it’s not just a case of me picking heavier tyres, the tyres have also become heavier.

    A few years ago I was using a 29×2.35 Hans Dampf (in the softer trailstar compound) on the front of my trail bike. As far as I can tell that weighed 850g in the snakeskin version.

    The current equivalent Hans Dampf (29×2.35 in addix soft with super trail carcass, the lightest option they currently offer) is 1075g

    So it looks like the same tyre, is marketed for the same purpose and if you weren’t paying attention you might not realise that it had gained 225g over the years.

    I’m sure many would say that the current version is a better tyre than the old one and it is, if by better you mean more grip and fewer punctures. It might even roll better on a roller in the lab, but there is no getting away from the fact that it’s a fair chunk heavier.

    Even “dropping” to a soft nobby nic only gets you down to 1045g. As far as I can tell Schwalbe no longer make an 850g 29er in a soft compound. I guess there just isn’t a market for them, which is a shame as I don’t think I ever punctured my old trailstar hans dampf but I did appreciate the extra grip from the softer compound on the front.

    roverpig
    Full Member

    Personally I don’t mind the odd puncture. I currently carry a tubeless repair thing, a spare tube, a pump, some stick on patches and a tyre boot. I’ve not used any of these on the trail for years*. If I’m puncturing every couple of rides then I’ll switch to something heavier, but I don’t need to lug around something that is so heavy that I never puncture.

    *At least not on the MTB. I have on the gravel bike, but that runs light tyres and I’m still only averaging a couple of punctures a year.

    tb927
    Free Member

    I noticed in a couple of Pinkbike field tests (the ones where they didn’t have ‘control’ tyres) that they were faster everywhere on less chunky tyred bikes. One was a hardtail and they seemed kinda surprised it was the fastest (or 2nd) descender vs some fullys, and another was a bike they seemed to think felt not that great…again surprised it was one of the fastest downhill. In both cases the ‘surprising’ bikes had smaller tyres (Forekasters and Trail Boss F/R) against bikes with wide trail Minions etc, and I can’t help but feel it wasn’t a coincidence. It wasn’t a proper DH track they were on, so rolling speed probably won out vs. a bit of confidence in the corners.

    I’ve been running Magic Mary/Dampf on my hardtail and while it’s reassuring, it deffo feels slow on anything not steep and downhill, it’s less fun just razzing about the woods or on flow trails, and not really any good (like me) for messing around on pump tracks etc. Am going to try some zippier tyres I reckon.. going to try a Kenda Pinner on the front with a 2nd hand Rekon at the back.

    Blackflag
    Free Member

    I use a Magic Mary Super Gravity Addix Soft 2.4 up front for the peaks. I think this is probably the best type of tyre for all the classic peaks descents or is STW being its usual contrary self?

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