Osbourne says no to currency union.

Only governments of member states can approach the commission for its advice.

Hence the scottish govt asked Westminster to approach the commission.

And all precedents and EU commentary would indicate that Scotland as a successor state would have to apply for membership, so surely the onus is on the Yes campaign to prove otherwise?

Which precedents?
Avery evidence to the foreign affairs committee

scottish independence and eu

I say again the relevant body to present your arguement to/ or to seek advice from is the EU commission which can only hear arguements from or give advice to the government of existing member states. The Uk government claims it wants clarity on the issue and then refuses to get the definitive advice which it can get not from third parties but straight from the horses mouth

Which precedents?

Ireland, Russia, Netherlands, India etc….

Name one example where a minority left a union and became a ‘continuing state’

If only there were some ‘Yes’ friendly people in the European parliament that could ask the question, people who represented a member state but were members of a party who were pro independence, perhaps MEPs who were members of the SNP, if only there were two of those eh!

Thats the point there are no precedents within the EU for this situation as Avery said in my first link page 1 para 4

It has to be the member states government that approaches the EU commission. Not MEPs or for that matter ordinary MPs.

The EU has no historical precedent for dealing with Scottish independence.

For sure – I have no historical precedent for dealing with the wife finding me in bed with Cheryl Cole, but I’m fairly sure it won’t end well (the Cheryl bit withstanding obviously)

Good luck with that :-)If I dont go to bed now I will need UN help just to negotiate my way out of the doghouse.

There are currently around 100,000 EU citizens living, studying and working in Scotland. The idea that the EU would make them all come home, and lose access to Scottish waters for European fishing vessels into the bargain, is silly.

There’s no precedent for this, therefore a sensible resolution will be reached by the grown-ups once the children have stopped posturing.

The idea that the EU would make them all come home

Why would the EU be interested in making them all ‘come home’ ?

If Scotland no longer wanted to offer them residence then that would be for Scotland to deal with.

I agree it seems preposterous that the EU would refuse membership to Scotland though.

But then I could never have predicted that the EU would fully support the violent overthrow of an elected government because it had refused to sign a trade deal with it, so who knows ?

The EU thing is a total irrelevance – the EU has been grasping desperately to find some way to get Ukraine, Georgia and Armenia to join, which are obviously futile and far to difficult (hence Euromaidan). They would not hesitate to let Scotland in when it would be almost frictionless.

All of these comments about “Scotland wouldn’t be a member after independence” are stupid too – there will be an interval between any successful vote and independence, and that period would be used to negotiate seamless EU membership.

Bencooper: Scotland would be in charge of its own immigration policy, if it chose to deport EU citizens because it was not a member of the EU, that would be its decision, not the EU’s. (I don’t see it as a plausible scenario anyway seeing as there is no accurate record of where those citizens live, even if there were enough officers to drag them out of their homes).

so surely the onus is on the Yes campaign to prove otherwise?

its unfaitr to put the onus on the Yes campaign when the only ones who can ask are the yes campaign

It seems reasonable to assume that if they thought they would support their view then they would ask so I would imagine they dont ask because
1. They want to use the uncertainty for political gain- rather naughty but you can see why it helps them
2. They think the answer will be Yes they can join

Its all one big we dont know but the issue is the EU will be able to “fast track” them if they wish or refuse if they wish so none of us know what will really happen at the 18 month long negotiations
If i had to bet I would say they will be in the EU, NATO and not the pound

its unfaitr to put the onus on the Yes campaign when the only ones who can ask are the yes campaignUK government

FTFY

Its realpolitik

Behind the scenes, the reason the UK govt won’t ask for a formal opinion on the status prior to the referendum, as requested by ‘Yes’ is because they’ve been asked not to by Spain, as it would lead to unacceptable pressure on their own domestic front to approach for a prospective opinion on behalf of Catalonia.

You need to see the bigger picture!

Given whats happened in the Crimea, I would suggest Scotland’s task has just become a whole load more difficult, there will be some very twitchy arses round the table when it comes to recognising independence referenda.

For me at least, this is pertinent to my decision making.

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/mar/17/oxfam-report-scale-britain-growing-financial-inequality

What’s the EU issue other than another red herring? The Scot Gov is perfectly clear, according to AS’s sidekick….

The Scottish Government recognises that membership of the EU will require negotiations with other Member States and the EU institutions in order to agree the terms on which an independent Scotland will become a full member of the EU.

From the SG website.

Of course there is the syrup (as always) that a “little birdie” said that this would be done within 18 months, but by yS standards they are close to being straight on this one. Of course, the fact that those in the know suggest that it will take longer can just be dismissed as more bluster.

Of course, the fact that those in the know suggest that it will take longer

Any links thm?
Or did you get that from

a “little birdie”

😉

No, just need to follow the news, Gordi.

If the news is followed by any of the “3Bs”, you know it’s going to be pretty much “on the button.”

For me at least, this is pertinent to my decision making.

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/mar/17/oxfam-report-scale-britain-growing-financial-inequality

I’m not sure why that report should be pertinent to your decision making. Increasing economic inequality is not a uniquely British thing it is a phenomena that has become prevalent throughout the world as a direct consequence of the emergence of the neo-liberal economic model.

Back in the day when Richard Nixon famously declared that he was Keynesian the advanced industrialised world was much more equal. But since then neo-liberal policies of mass unemployment, privatization, and weak trade unions, has driven wages down whilst inevitably increasing the accumulated of wealth of a small privileged minority. Indeed this lies at the root cause of the currant financial crises affecting the US and Europe – consumers with poor purchasing power were encouraged to accept easy credit to top up their low wages.

So what would an independent Scotland do about it ? Introduce Keynesian state intervention policies ? Illegal under in EU rules, and apparently an “independent” Scotland independent of the EU isn’t on the cards. Higher taxation on the super rich ? How would you stop them crossing the border, even if they were in Scotland in the first place ? Stronger trade unions and higher wages ? How would you stop the labour market being flooded by workers crossing the boarder in search of better wages ?

The widening gap between rich and poor isn’t going to be reversed because Scotland gains independence. So just put up with it. Or, if you really want to do something meaningful about then it look at the bigger picture, much bigger picture. The first step before you could actually do anything would be to seek independence from the EU.

There’s so much energy going in to pin down what Scotland should do after independence.

The current campaign is for independence, not membership of another Union. Anything else is a red herring.

Shortly after independence we will be electing our choice of government, and that’s when these sort of decisions are appropriate to be made.

There is no reason Scotland could not be an independent and neutral country.

Ernie, apologies that wasn’t an invitation to debate. It was a statement, it’s also not the only reason.

Ernie’s 3rd and 4th paras are right though, nothing is going to miraculously change because Scotland is independent. In fact it could be the opposite and get worse, you think the Aberdonian oil industry and Edinburgh financial services industry are going to bankroll the rest of the country without wanting something back?

dragon – Member
…nothing is going to miraculously change because Scotland is independent. In fact it could be the opposite and get worse…

Indeed. That is the ad nauseum message of the Proud Scots in the Better Together mob.

After our airfields have been bombed (apparently it may be necessary) and the new border controls set up, the oil is going to dry up immediately, all the banks are going to go south, and we will not get to watch Dr Who.

We’re feart.

I get the imression epicyclo that you reckon Scots in the Better Together campaign are not really proud for not subscribing to your vision of Scotland. If at all possible you may have to reconcile yourself with the fact that a significant number of Scots in iS did not vote Yes however still feel proud to be Scottish.

I disagree with Yes voters profoundly, and think Scotland will be heading down a darker path, but understand their motives. No more or less deserving of calling themselves proud Scots.

If you don’t want it debated, keep your thoughts to yourself – ernie was simply pointing out that it is an even worse reason for voting Yes than liking Braveheart. I’m quite sure that it has nothing at all to do with your decision – like most on here you’ve already made up your mind and simply looking for ways to justify your choice.

athgray – Member
I get the imression epicyclo that you reckon Scots in the Better Together campaign are not really proud for not subscribing to your vision of Scotland….

When I hear a sentence prefaced with “I’m a Proud Scot, but…” it resonates with that other sentence “I’m not a racist, but…”, so I tend to be somewhat sceptical, especially when they’re peddling fear, uncertainty, and disaster, rather than a positive vision of Scotland in the Union.

I have yet to hear one good reason to stay in. Heard plenty of scare stories though.

keep your thoughts to yourself

No

I can see you are struggling epicyclo. You reckon staying in the union would bring doom to Scotland. God knows I have heard plenty of scare mongering from the yes campaign. I will not deny I can see an unhappy path for Scotland after a Yes vote.

If the definition of a proud Scot is decided by either dear leader, the Yes campaign, or it’s militant support then we have already set course for a dark destination.

I have already stated that the Saltire is being highjacked by the Yes camp. I find this worrying.

I can disagree with anyone on here about the best direction for Scotland or the UK, and can understand different peoples feelings on their own identity, but will not have my credentials as as proud Scot called in to question.

I have yet to hear one good reason to stay in.

You belong to a fairly stable and safe country.
A lot of people won’t want to risk that, which is why the vote will probably be no.

You belong to a fairly stable and safe country.
A lot of people won’t want to risk that, which is why the vote will probably be no.

Being honest, this is pretty much what I expect to happen.

Never underestimate people’s aversion to change.

Am I remembering correctly that there was a last minute drop in support in 1979?

No
[/quote]

Expect them to be debated then.

Hmmm.

I’m not suggesting you can’t debate either the subject matter, or even my thoughts on that subject matter.

Just don’t expect much response. For the moment fatigue has set in on that particular nugget.

I’m not 100% either way on Yes or No it’s probably a 60/40 split which has been a 40/60 split. Don’t assume I’m just looking for justification, some minds do change.

piemonster, just read your link and although it makes saddening reading, you could produce a stat like that for iS. Is the Duke of Buccleuch not the largest land owner in Europe?

Also if you care about the widening inequality gap in the UK, how does Scotland becoming independent help?

athgray – Member
I can see you are struggling epicyclo. You reckon staying in the union would bring doom to Scotland…

Struggling over what? The Union has been doom for Scotland.

What I want is to live in a democratic country. At the moment I do not. A country with an unelected upper house is not a democracy, no matter how much spin you put on it.

The Union has been doom for Scotland

I thought that was the Darien Project 😉

the Duke of Buccleuch

I read that as Duke of Bukkake

The Union has been doom for Scotland.

What? 😆

It has been a couple of years since I strayed north of the border, have things changed that much in such little time or…?