Do you think rUK has no Plan B and would you like to level that criticism at them? Both sides are as guilty of that charge.

I think if iS want independance, it’s up to them to make the case for it, not the other way round. Bit like asking a reluctant partner to make the case for divorce when they don’t want the marriage to end.

so which way will you vote then even though you do not really know what you will get.

Well I can’t vote as I don’t live in Scotland. In many ways I’d like Scotland to get independance and offer an alternative to the Eton cabal that currently run the UK.

However, to get independance they need a professional in charge and whilst AS is very good at glib PR, he’s in a situation where just saying ‘Yes we can’ won’t cut it. I suspect the 2014 vote is almost certainly lost for iS now. (NB looking at the odds currently offered, all the bookies agree).

Good luck finding one. Or do you mean a website biased in the direction you prefer?

They exist. But pro union news agencies and pro independence websites are not them. Try abroad.

I prefer no bias in either direction.

What I usually get, sets the bullcrap detector alarm off on a regular basis.

I think if iS want independance, it’s up to them to make the case for it, not the other way round. Bit like asking a reluctant partner to make the case for divorce when they don’t want the marriage to end.

Is this bad analogy day?What we have is the reluctant partner who wants to save the marriage going I wont negotiate till you decide whilst saying you are not having that if you do …which is a perfectly reasonable position ?
Its very polarised this “debate”.

whilst AS is very good at glib PR

Unlike the titans in UK defending it eh 😆

i get your point but really how can you just criticise one side in this

Both sides are equally culpable of much of the criticism but it is clear that the decision to NOT negotiate was taken by the UK [ which started this side bar] and still some blame AS. Its letting your politics decide reality tbh.

“Scotland’s Future: from the Referendum to Independence and a Written Constitution” is a Scottish government document

I was geting confused with this one* presented by the Scottish secretary which outlines the UK refusal to negotiate.Apologies for my confusion/error/mistake – my google skills let me down. Either way the fact they accepted the UK would not negotiate does not make them the authors of this policy – it was not their choice or fault.

Sorry 😳
* https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/scotland-analysis-devolution-and-the-implications-of-scottish-independencet

No worries, it’s one of the things that grates on me a bit though, regardless of who initially said “no” to pre-negotiation both sides have agreed that it is the right thing to do before the signing of the Edinburgh agreement but the Yes campaign still try and use it as an example of Westminster bullying.

I think that AS is happy with it as much of what he says is unlikely to happen and he can just do aspirational pish to his hearts content whilst portraying rUK as bullies

I also think it is not great to say you wont negotiate then also say what you wont do which is clearly just as much an act of double speak. They will say stuff [ negotiate??] ONLY to undermine what AS does so their position is no more credible

Politicians being politicians Shocker.

Ben – Are you taking the piss? He’s a convicted criminal!FFS!

[quote]
So what? He’s also a very good public speaker, and his conviction doesn’t alter the facts of what he’s saying.[/quote]
So basically you’re saying he is like Hitler. OKAY I GET IT

(PS I think Ben Cooper is a No campaign agent provocateur who is paid to discredit Yes by coming out with nonsense :p )

They will say stuff [ negotiate??] ONLY to undermine what AS does so their position is no more credible

Hardly a surprise though. After all iS is wanting to leave the union unilaterally, you might expect some feet dragging / push back?

i get your point but really how can you just criticise one side in this

Well if the SNP really want to get a yes vote, I’d expect them do have covered all their bases and be ready for anything. After all, being out manouvered by Cameron, who is not a great politician, is pretty piss poor.

Is this bad analogy day?

Every day is bad analogy day on STW.

Stolen gratuitously from the FT

Brings a new meaning to the term Scottish Widdows!!!

So basically you’re saying he is like Hitler. OKAY I GET IT

Anyone who’s got a criminal conviction is like Hitler? Okay 🙄

Just for you, I found a charismatic speaker eloquently arguing the case for No:

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tISJLHzrEA[/video]

bencooper – sorry but you really are quite one-eyed when it comes to this issue. Any argument in favour of independence is accepted without being subject to even the most basic scrutiny. Any evidence presented that doesn’t fit your view is automatically part of a conspiracy against Scotland.

It’s weird because I always thought of you as quite a rational guy. Maybe it’s just that I happened to agree with you about other stuff. 🙂

Maybe I just like messing with you 😀

[video] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCZFYE-AqNY&feature=youtube_gdata_player%5B/video%5D
just for you mr bowie

An interesting analysis in the New Statesman – by a professor from Chicago so perhaps less biased* than a Scottish source:

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/02/flaw-osbornes-pre-emptive-strike-against-currency-union

*potentially

The article starts from the presumption that currency union is the best outcome for rUK, I think this is a big leap based on the BoE statement and the spending commitments in the BoD

BA positive towards independent Scotland

That BBC never report anything positive?

Or maybe they just report when the big business has been saying, which just happens to be mainly negative………

An interesting analysis in the New Statesman – by a professor from Chicago so perhaps less biased* than a Scottish source:

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/02/flaw-osbornes-pre-emptive-strike-against-currency-union

*potentially

🙂

BA positive towards independent Scotland

Hardly, Willie Walsh just wants air passenger taxes scrapped and would back HItler if he thought it would help….

Willie Walsh just wants air passenger taxes scrapped

Exactly. The SNP has promised to at least half them and possibly scrap them.

So they are positive towards an independent Scotland.

Not sure what your saying there?

Interviewed on BBC Breakfast, group chief executive Willie Walsh was asked whether the airline was also making contingency plans for independence.

I found this quite bizarre. What where they expecting. Airlines to cancel flights to and from Scotland?

A Scottish government spokesman insisted Scotland would keep the pound after independence, as part of a formal currency union.

He added: “An independent Scotland will continue in EU membership, and the only threat to that is Westminster’s proposed in/out referendum which risks taking Scotland out of the EU against its will, with huge consequences for jobs, investment and prosperity.”

😆 – not exactly been paying attention has he?

Exactly how many more people are going to travel to Scotland to fly. Even with lower taxes? It’s not like getting there is free.

<shrugs> it’s win-win for him though – if reducing the cost of flights wouldn’t result in more people flying BA just keep the price the same and pocket the APD. I doubt he cares about the impact APD has on the economy, simply the effect it has on his bottom line.

– not exactly been paying attention has he?

Perhaps he’s been listening to a wider number of opinions, rather than relying on one politician who has his own reasons for what he said. Barroso isn’t exactly an independent and impartial voice.

http://www.snp.org/media-centre/news/2014/mar/senior-european-politicians-dismiss-eu-scares

Hmm, so you don’t think Scotland would leave the EU (and have to reapply to join) on independence? Could you provide a link to some senior EU official/politician confirming that?

How about the bit about keeping the pound as part of a currency union?

Melanie Phillips explaining independence to the Americans:

[video]http://youtu.be/tO7YxtlTKRY[/video]

😀

@aracer – I think all these things will be up for negotiation. It’s a unique situation – anyone who pretend they know how it’ll go is deceiving themselves.

I think all these things will be up for negotiation. It’s a unique situation – anyone who pretend they know how it’ll go is deceiving themselves

you haven’t read the BoD have you 😉

I think all these things will be up for negotiation.

Including things like becoming an independent country, yet managing to stay in the EU, which would require completely new rules?

Have you found a linky with somebody suggesting that will happen yet?

I think all these things will be up for negotiation

Ben – At the heart of the EU is the Treaty of Lisbon that has been, discussed, negotiated and argued over for several years before finally being ratified.

From the EU website –

Treaties are amended to make the EU more efficient and transparent, to prepare for new member countries and to introduce new areas of cooperation – such as the single currency.

Now a new member will be a major amendment to that and will be take time. So there will be a delay of at least a year or 2, probably longer for this amendment to be agreed.

I’ve decided that my favourite thing about the referendum campaign.

Is the ability of both Yes and No camps to claim the latest polls indicate growing support, regardless of what they might actually be saying.

Slightly off topic but ladybadger just came out with something that made me giggle… ‘If we get independence do you think we could get google renamed as Dougal?’

honeybadgerx – Member
Slightly off topic but ladybadger just came out with something that made me giggle… ‘If we get independence do you think we could get google renamed as Dougal?’

We won’t be getting any internet from the south after independence.

The leaders of the Tory, LibDem, Labour, and UKIP have said a firm NO to any electrons or magic internet stuff crossing the border.

The SNP have a plan B though, and our internet will be conducted by semaphore and Aldiss lamps mounted on all the wind turbines. Apparently optical internet is the latest technology, so we’ll be laughing.

We will have our own search engine called Weardafukizit.

our internet will be conducted by semaphore and Aldiss lamps mounted on all the wind turbines

To be honest I get about 0.4mb/s at the moment so that may well be an improvement!

Been away for a few days, 1700+ posts wow …

bencooper – Member
The point really is that Standard Life back plans for a currency union.

Should someone tell Osborne?

Thanks for the video above – ’twas interesting and amusing – note the part about EU being inundated with small nations wanting to join.

Standard Life: IMO this should be read as a big negative for an independent Scotland, basically SL has said unless there is a formal currency union it’s going to leave Scotland (that statement by the way puts zero pressure on Osbourne to agree to a union, in fact it’s an argument not to as SL will relocate to the UK). SL has said this as it’s business (most clients outside Scotland including me 😉 ) makes no sense being located in a country with either the euro, a Scottish pound or a British pound but with no union.

I wonder whether they’ve costed converting all the .uk domains to .sco

Thought of that – it’s why I’ve got http://www.kinetics.us 😉

‘If we get independence do you think we could get google renamed as Dougal?’

Only if when you search “Hamish” it comes up with ‘you’ll have had your tea!’

basically SL has said unless there is a formal currency union it’s going to relocate… as it’s business (most clients outside Scotland including me ) makes no sense being located in a country with either the euro, a Scottish pound or a British pound but with no union.

1) that’s not what SL said

2) the more of its business is outside Scotland, the less it matters what currency Scotland uses. Explain how SL would significantly be affected by Scotland using a euro, new currency or non-union pound.

@kona – 1) SL said they where preparing a contingency plan to relocate to the UK in the event Scotland voted yes and there was no currency union. That reads to me very clearly that a yes vote means they leave. Why would Scorland vote for independence then keep a currency and interest rates it has no control over. It may be “management speak” but I read it clearly that they’d be relocating.

2) It makes very little sense for a company to have most of its earnings in one currency (the pound) then have most of its cost base (employee wages etc) in another (Scottish pound, euro) – that to me is one reason but to the people whose opinion really matter is the SL management and they’ve told us already they are preparing a contingency plan due to the threat to their business.

1) that’s not what SL said

2) SL and every other export-oriented business already does this – look at all the countries in which it operates in currencies other than the pound. The costs of a company the affected by way more than currency. And in any case none of that would change if Scotland carries on usig the pound, in union or otherwise.