I haven’t been on the main forum for a while (been busy riding) and I am shocked to see how many posts there are about buying chinese products direct. Is it just me or is this wrong on so many levels? I know its a free world. But isn’t it obvious what the long term issues are with this? Is the damage that will be done not obvious? It seems like self gratification above anything else.

On what levels is it wrong?

I know its a free world

Not in China it isn’t.

Everyone who buys it pays import duty, our government gets their cut. If they then don’t spend it on rebalancing the fact that Chinese goods are cheaper i.e. retraining our unemployed manufacturing workforce into service industry workers, isn’t your problem with the UK government?

is it better to buy them indirectly?
then someone else can deal with the economic/ political/ moral issues?

I’m struggling with a single level on which it’s wrong (counterfeit goods aside), let alone the “so many” of which you speak?

I think I can see where you’re coming from but Brakes nails it, you can buy off well known companies and unless the owners are freegan hippy yoghurt weaving fairtraders they will have probably sourced their wares/had it made wherever was cheapest, in some cases china (or somewhere else with shite pay/conditions/screwed over workers)

Well basically with that atitude we are stuffed. You might as well all turn the lights out now. The import duty argument doesn’t wash as it would create a trade war with china. Something the west isnt capable of doing. As for why keep the profit margins of design and development with the UK? Well it keeps those highly skilled jobs in the UK as simple as that. At least while UK companies have some control over working conditions in china then the workers get some rights. A solely chinese manufactured product will not be controlled at all. Or you could just wash your hands of all of it and buy what you want. Feed at the trough till you cant waddle away. Lets all buy cheap cheap cheap and not expect it to affect our lives.

buy what you want

Thank you

Aren’t most carbon frames produced in the East? I think only Intense carbon frames are made in “The West”.
So if the bike manufactures can use cheaper labour to have their stuff made then add a whopping mark-up because it’s got a cool name on what is wrong, ethically or morally, in us, the end user, cutting out that % price hike?

How’s that tin foil hat fitting?

As for why keep the profit margins of design and development with the UK? Well it keeps those highly skilled jobs in the UK as simple as that.

How many designers do Planet X have? 10? It’s not exactly a colossal industry is it!? Their products are being made in the Far East, just like virtually every major brand out there, it’s a bit late to save our manufacturing industry. How many brands are mass producing parts in the UK? Hope, Superstar are dabbling, USE/Exposure… erm… I’m struggling?

Well the latest one seems to be about buying carbon bars direct. Remind me again which carbon bars are designed and developed in the UK so that I can buy some of those?

Its so obvious that manufacturing is done abroad. Its really not a point worth making. Planet x will direclty and indirectly employ more than 10 people. Planet x are not the only company in the UK and bikes are not the only products in the UK. So with many companies still owned in the UK and controlling manufacturing abroad, there are 10’s of thousands of jobs in the UK that are at risk. The service sector in the UK will not last long without some manufacturing base. If you take away the companies that control the brands you take away an important piece of the model and the model starts to break. How many people do Dyson employ? Yet they manufacture abroad.

I’m struggling with a single level on which it’s wrong

The level I was thinking of was the “being made by people just like you and I that are denied the same working conditions, wages and basic freedoms that workers in this country have” level. Which ultimately means that this country can longer maintain a competitive manufacturing industry unless we were also to lower at least our working conditions and wages.

Like DONK said above it’s no good buying from a well known western company as they’ve probably sourced their product from the cheapest supplier, which will leads us back to where we started.

The problem isn’t the companies, they can’t shift an ethically manufactured product in sufficient numbers because the average consumer won’t pay the additional cost. if we were actually willing to pay a fair price for a product based on it’s manufacture in conditions that we’d be happy to work under then we’d still have a manufacturing industry and a stronger more diverse economy.

As it is we are helping a country with an appalling human rights record, a distinct lack of environmental controls and a leadership intent on a path of expansionism to continue its growth.

The one point that i agree on is that it possibly is too late, we now expect everything from clothing to electronics to bike lights to be unrealistically cheap and I’m not sure if it’s even possible to get people out of that mindset.

Its so obvious that manufacturing is done abroad. Its really not a point worth making. Planet x will direclty and indirectly employ more than 10 people. Planet x are not the only company in the UK and bikes are not the only products in the UK. So with many companies still owned in the UK and controlling manufacturing abroad, there are 10’s of thousands of jobs in the UK that are at risk. The service sector in the UK will not last long without some manufacturing base. If you take away the companies that control the brands you take away an important piece of the model and the model starts to break. How many people do Dyson employ? Yet they manufacture abroad.

So what’s your point? That if we buy a pair of handlebars from China, Dyson go out of business?

You seem to be flitting all over the place. What proportion of people in the UK are directly employed in manufacturing these days? That’s been gradually declining for quite a while now, like 150 years…

Im not just talking about the UK. I am talking about europe and america. Both of which we have strong trade relationships with. Hell, even south america or other countries in the east asian region that have democracies.

hahaha… well it seems my question has been answered. No one really seems to care.

Good luck to saracen, orange, hope, planet x etc…

Good luck to saracen, orange, hope, planet x etc…

Who all benefit from Far East labour? Hope to a lesser extent I concede, but who makes their machines that they make bike parts with?

I would happily buy from china direct but I would make sure its from a company that has some back up in their products and not just from some factory worker on ebay.

njee my point is clear… dyson work on the same model as all the mtb brands, manufacture abroad, manage, design, engineer, market in the UK.

A large part of the uk economy works on this model. So if you buy direct you break the model you break the uk economy. Like a building one corner implodes you’ll be lucky the rest doesnt go with it.

You say they are too expensive. all of your jobs are too expensive, thats the game. All of your jobs can be replaced.

Talking about UK manufacturing companies is different to talking about uk products. My title says products not manufacturing.

njee… i have stated a few times… it is obvious these products are manufactured abroad. That is the modern western production model.

My point is you cripple the UK economy bit by bit and you strengthen a communist regime. I question how right that is. Your choice is yours, but I personally think it is a wrong choice. Secondly and something that you can’t avoid is that the material effect is a decline in the wealth and political (democratic) power of this country. To say there is nothing you can do to stop it isnt true. All the small choices add up. To simply give in, well…

You say they are too expensive. all of your jobs are too expensive, thats the game. All of your jobs can be replaced.

Who says that?

You remind me of the chap who stands on London Bridge ranting about religion and how I need to accept Jesus into my life, or be smited and what not.

strengthen a communist regime. I question how right that is

Ahh this is about some ancient idea of reds under the bed, the west vs the commies?

My point is you cripple the UK economy bit by bit and you strengthen a communist regime.

Not nececeraly, the richer the workers get, the more likely they are to say f*** you to Beijing.

And on an even more basic level, why should I care whether my money is suppourting a factory worker in Halifax or Han Chinese? They’re both people, both with an equal right to make a living. Or should they all go back to growing rice?

Infact by your arguments, I’m being far more alturistic sending my money abroad, as there’s no indirect kickbakc for me then.

dogmatix – I agree with your point. But as you can see, most people only care about the price and don’t give a toss.

So… It’s not enough that I pay 22% or 40% of my wages in tax. I pay national insurance. I pay 70p on the £ in tax on my patrol. I pay 20% vat. I pay car tax. The list goes on.

But, by saving myself a few hundred quid by buying direct from China, i’m bringing down the UK economy?

Expletive off.

the richer the workers get

It’s not the workers who are getting richer though is it?

So… It’s not enough that I pay 22% or 40% of my wages in tax. I pay national insurance. I pay 70p on the £ in tax on my patrol. I pay 20% vat. I pay car tax. The list goes on.

Think yourself lucky you don’t work in a Chinese factory. Ever been to China and seen how the ordinary workers actually live? The big cities like Shanghai feel very western until you venture out of the CBD and then it quickly turns third worldy.

Its a illogical argument, the reverse of your fears will happen if we buy direct. By buying direct, we raise living standards and hence wages in chaina, and all these jobs will come back here, where the difference in price will just be the shipping.

These protectionist fears are perpetuated by the middle men because it is better for them to keep living standards and hence wages cheap in China, so they can carry on exploiting their willingness to work for naff all, and our willingness to pay through the nose.

It’s not the workers who are getting richer though is it?

The money all has to go somewhere. If I buy something ‘made in britain’, odds are it’s made by someone on near minimum wage whilst the factory owner drives a range rover.

The big cities like ShanghaiMiddlesbrough feel very western until you venture out of the CBD and then it quickly turns third worldy.

FTFY

Yay! Smash the commie state by buying up cheap Chinese carbon! Do your bit for the repressed worker! 🙂

Yay! Smash the commie state by buying up cheap Chinese carbon! Do your bit for the repressed worker!

Exactly!

These protectionist fears are perpetuated by the middle men because it is better for them to keep living standards and hence wages cheap in China, so they can carry on exploiting their willingness to work for naff all, and our willingness to pay through the nose.

This, and the far eastern workers earn more when they sell direct than when Primark/Specialized etc negotiate contracts demanding XX units per hour for 13 pence. For the big companies it is all about minimizing cost to maximize profit.

I wonder dogmatix are you pushing this adgenda to satisfy your own prejudice. I asked on the other thread, are you a UKIPer?

In the grand csheme of things relating to the western economies I imagine the few folks who frequent this forum & are buying direct from China must account for a minute percentage of GDP/ tax revenue.

Get a grip

Hmm you know Alibaba is in the midst of has completed the largest IPO ever.

This, and the far eastern workers earn more when they sell direct than when Primark/Specialized etc negotiate contracts demanding XX units per hour for 13 pence. For the big companies it is all about minimizing cost to maximize profit.

When did this utopian version of China become a reality? A better price for the company will not equal a better wage for the shop floor worker. It’ll just mean a better margin for the owner. I doubt that the freedom of information in China extends to a factory worker knowing the markup on the widgets that they are turning out.

well it is a fact that wages are rising in china, and it appears to be driven by dealing with the west.

click

I think you put too much stock in democracy, working conditions aren’t hugely effected by the right to vote (for more than one party) [Bangladesh and India].

As for eroding the British economy, yes you’re correct, the over inflated cost of living in the UK is largely supported by over paid jobs (mine included) based in the UK with a manufacture base overseas. Buying direct does cut out the UK arm of the profit, do I feel any moral obligation to help my next door neighbour afford a big TV (made by a man in ???? that considers running water and electricity to be luxury items) no, no I don’t. Frankly of we weren’t all so concerned with keeping our place at the top of the pile maybe we’d have done a bit more to fix the bottom.

Will I be better off if my job moves to China? No. Do I think for a second that, once my job can be consistently outsourced to China with no operational impact that the keep my job in the UK? No not a chance. Not of course unless the UK economy has changed to allow me to do my job at a competitive cost.

Frankly I couldn’t eat for a day on what they earn in a month, the greatest chance of long term job security in the West lies in being able to compete and largely that requires or economy to collapse and rebuild. The are very, very few jobs which require to be based here, most are here only for ease. Buying local (designed? Plenty of designers in China) amounts to less now than 40 years ago and in 40 years from now, without something to redress the balance, will amount to little more than where their Chosen decided to live to pay least tax.

dbcooper… The increase in prosperity in china will only increase the strength of the political system. Its naive to think the workers will rise up. As Russias economy has grown it has been easier for putin to drage russia back to repression. As for reds under the bed its the wrong example. That describes communists infiltrating western societies. The facts on the ground are the communist regime is china is growing stronger and more powerful, not weaker. To think this is some west vs east ideology that has no relevence today shows a very short sighted view of history. Its an incovenient truth, but a truth. I no someone who has worked in china for 2 years. I understand a little, only a little of their views of the west. They are not generally friendly. To think they are all growing up waiting to become western is a falicy. Have you seen protest in china when japan is seen to do something wrong? It puts xenophobia in this country in to perspective.

So my points are two fold.

1) Buying british or western products (not manufacturing) may well support head of CRC in his BMW (sorry head of CRC) but it will also support his employees and the larger UK economy as a whole. So it supports your family and friends in the long run.

2)It supports a political system, though not perfect, that is democratic.

lastly, to think that chinese people can’t support theyre own economy by buying their own products is frankly patronising. They can buy there own products, they can raise their own living standards. The west movement of manufacturing to china has already done this. It is a fake argument to use this as a reason to buy chinese products direct.

If i cant buy it new i buy second hand (money in to UK economy direclty). There is nothing wrong with waiting for things. It an old fashioned concept, but one the chinese would very much approve of, and view the west as foolish for not having.