Yawn.

We’ll always need posties 😀

dangeourbrain do you think China will let us rebuild when we collapse. Do you think their business model will be as liberal as ours has? They don’t believe in liberal economics or globalisation. I want to state this really isn’t a rant about the chinese people as a race. This is about the chinese political and cultural system created by the communist system, decade upon decade. Do you know children in class rooms can be used to report on other children. This isn’t hear say.

Doggy, which would be better for the Chinese peeps

a) Let them interact and make and sell stuff all over the world through internets and gain western-ness.

b) Shut them off and leave them to themselves

My point also is none of this is set in stone, the future isnt written. I am saying my personal response is to do what I can to support uk people or products by either buying new or second hand. I think there is nothing wrong with thinking before you buy. I am just questioning what seems to be becoming the status quo. I am by no means perfect, but I do the best I can. Again, my values dont need to be the same as yours, but if it has made anyone think about it then I think thats cool… Whatever you do i hope you enjoy the your ride… 😉

Again, my values dont need to be the same as yours

Thank God, I’m glad you’re giving me permission to buy what I want!

richard they are very far from being shut off and are large enough to create their own internal economy, right now they are net exporters, so they take from global trade not add to it. The west really is on the wrong end of this stick. I am just talking about holding back the flood. Keeping something for ourselves so we can be competitive in the future. you dont have to worry about china not rising even if you took my view. That horse has long bolted. Staying competitive is still possible. But only if we get what is going on.

They really wont gain westerness, they have a restricted internet, if you think our media is biased and controlled, well… I promise you this will not happen they will not become western by osmosis…

The state is embedded everywhere. You really can’t imagine. This isnt NSA level snooping (they have that twenty fold) this is people on the street. If you say something wrong on social meida over there you will be picked out. This thread I am writing wouldnt exist.

to think that chinese people can’t support theyre own economy by buying their own products is frankly patronising. They can buy there own products,

You’re playing grammar nazi bingo and I claim my five pounds.

hands up… writing too fast…

If I buy a Chinese designed carbon bar that’s manufactured in China direct from China I am hastening the downfall of the Western economy and propping up a repressive Communist regime with their cunning plan of taking over the world.
So if I buy an American designed carbon bar manufatured in China am I perpetuating Guantanamo Bay,the trade embargo on Cuba ,drone strikes on Pakistani civilians and the economic and military support of Israel so it can oppress the Palestinians etc etc
Phew and I thought the only thing I had to concern myself about was is 780mm too wide?

They really wont gain westerness, they have a restricted internet, if you think our media is biased and controlled, well… I promise you this will not happen they will not become western by osmosis…

I’d like a ten page essay on my desk(top) by Monday morning, please, outlining precisely why ‘western-ness’ is something that people living elsewhere should strive after.

I bought my time trial carbon wheel direct from China .Nice easy transaction and it came in about 3 weeks .All duty was paid -simples

Dogmatix

Do you persoanlly never buy made in China goods. Or do you just not buy them direct from China?

If he west imported nothing from China would the average chines person be better or worse off?

njee really not telling anyone what to do… just putting across a view.

warpcow… it was never me that said they should gain westerness… I was replying to someone else. But I’ll give my take on it anyway, I’m not a great fan of laissez faire capitalism as part of western culture, but enlightenemt, cultural liberalism, democracy, human rights, freedom of speech. Whilst none of these are exclusive to western culture and by no means whole heartedly adhered to by western culture. They have been championed by it and developed by it over generations via philosophy and politics. If top trumps were the game i’d say that was pretty good. Your turn, lets hear your take on Communist Chinas gifts to the world?

ampthill… I did once… and i regret it… i questioned it at the time, I did it, and now i think i shouldnt have. It was a £50 light 4 or 5 years ago. As I have said I am not perfect. I genuinely think it was wrong for me ( a personal judgment on myself ) to do it.

As i’ve said i am not against our current model of production, that means manufacturing in china. I have nothing against the chinese people (lots against the state) the chinese people will really not suffer if we are selective in the type of goods we buy. Our manufacturing in their country has secured a strong internal economy. I think I have been clear this isn’t about boycotting, its about making choices. Thinking what products support the kind of economy we have constructed. Perosnally I think MTB products is one such product niche.

I am not painting myself as whiter than white. I am saying ‘You know what. I think this is wrong. I have had a think about it and I think it is wrong’, my choice for me, my opinion.

I’m clearly in the minority, I think moshimonster is the only one that agrees.

For me thats a shame.

(dbcooper the UKIP thing? really? thats really cheap, does that serve anyone? Does being against a Communist regime make me UKIP? If it were India we were talking about I really would have a slightly different view on it, my argument would be much harder to make. They have a democratic culture. Christ UKIP? really? )

This, and the far eastern workers earn more when they sell direct than when Primark/Specialized etc negotiate contracts demanding XX units per hour for 13 pence. For the big companies it is all about minimizing cost to maximize profit.

POSTED 1 HOUR AGO # REPORT-POST

The same as it is for the Chinese factory owners, or are they somehow less profit driven than their western counterparts?

Why “Communist Chinas gifts”? China existed long before communism, just as most of the Western values you mention were at their height about 400yrs ago. China had an enlightenment too, and much of it looks like exactly what you just wrote (freedom of expression, basic human rights, a democratic society, etc). Eastern philosophy (not the bastardised spiritual stuff common in the west) is just as rich as the Western tradition, and possibly more diverse, and it forms the foundation of their society in precisely the way you say it does ours. Sorry I missed that it was Richard who introduced the idea, but your answer didn’t do anything other than affirm that western-ness is something they should want.

parkesie

nice work 🙂

Who cares? What is wrong is to try to impose your western values on another culture.
Ever noticed that those with the supposed high moral standards are the first to do just the opposite? 😆

lets hear your take on Communist Chinas gifts to the world?

A couple of hundred billion dollars worth of foreign aid a year,mainly to Africa and Central America for a start.
Oh and China has lifted 440 million of it’s own people out of poverty in the last few decades.
Not that I am in any way an apologist of the Chinese regiome but I did think that a few facts might be useful.

By western-ness I meant freedom of thought and speech and the right to elect your leaders.

warpcow… thats a strawman argument. China of the past isn’t china of the present. Didn’t you get the whole revolution, long march, little red book thing? But still, that china I am talking about is of the past too. The new china is even worse with a communist power structure and cultural control over the individual, with the economic unfairness of unfettered capitalism. Communism takes the day zero method of cultural change. Everything before it was expunged and made illegal. Also, democracy was introduced in to china by european philosophy. But look I am not going to get ushered in to your cul de sac. China historically has given alot to the world. We are not discussing the past we are talking about very probable future trajectories. The ideas now espoused by the west, such as freedom of speach and democracy are seen by the chinese communist party as a weekness in western society. They have too large and too fragmented a nation state to allow anything like the western model to exist. I had a friend who often visited tibet. The oppression he saw there, both overt and covert, was unimaginable. He told me about the railroad they built in order to bring more chinese Han in to out compete the tibetans in terms of population. Sounds like old colonial Britain. An appauling part of our history, but that is happening today, in China.

“Some kind of cultural genocide is taking place,” the Dalai Lama said earlier this month. “In general, a railway link is very useful in order to develop, but not when politically motivated to bring about demographic change.”

Anyway as I said, i don’t want to impose western ideology on to them. That was someone elses point. I just don’t want us to loose ALL of our power and product development to them, and to clarify, when i say them, I mean the chinese communist party.

Aside from the supporting communism thing…

I think the point is brands in the UK/USA whatever spend money, time and expertise designing testing and creating new innovative products. Then find a manufacturer in China to make it in bulk.

If said Chinese factory then just rip the designs off and sell them direct to punters then the companies who spent all the time and effort designing these new things go bust and there are no companies left to design new products to be ripped off by China and all the innovation stops.

I get that China is bad

I’m just less sure that putting an online retailer between me China helps much. Particular as for some products the UK end is just warehousing and handling

Surely we could apply the same rant to any one who buys bike parts online rather popping to the LBS

Surely we should rage against machine built wheels and all insist on j spokes assembled in the UK

Or should we rant at anyone who doesn’t buy a made UK frame

nick1962 yes your right, along with the help of western liberal economics they were able to lift that many people out of poverty. That was 40 or so years after 36 million* (THIRTY SIX MILLION) of their OWN people starved to death at the hands of the communist regime. Over half of the entire UK population starved to death. (there are no exact figures)that beats pretty much any global atrocity… well there was stalins communist russia, that was close. both of these, mind, to their own populations. Thats how strong their ideology is and how strongly it has been enforced.

oh to ‘bring some figures in’, slight exageration on foreign aid figures closer to $7.1 billion (itsy titsy tiny bit less than the hundreds of billwions you mentioned) development assistance. that makes it the sixth largest in the world behind UK, US, Germany, France and Japan, yet it has the second largest economy in the world.

Still does foreign aid legitimise a Communist regime? oh you already stated it doesnt? So why mention the figures? I am clear about why I have added my (correct) figures. I think it is a questionable regime. I’m out in the open.

hahah im going to edit some bits out… i was being over sarcatsic/catty for a laugh…

ahhhh look i know its a bit heavy on the point…. hahaha, gone so overboard, ive made it to land already, but its just something I have on my mind… and I care about the people, kids, families, etc in this country… I think we do have some good ideologies (present) to defend too… (yes our past was pretty poor)(plus i want the kids in china to be happy too, but they have enough industry now and in to the future for that)

And personally i really do think it does and can make a difference. There are battles worth the fight and some not worth it. I think this is a battle that is worth the fight.

I buy bike bits from all over the place.

I buy USA manufactured items in the USA. I buy German manufactured items in the USA. I buy German manufactured items from a German store and get them sent to the UK. I buy German manufatuered items from a Northern Irish store and get them sent to the UK. I buy Japanese designed, Taiwanese built parts from England. I buy UK designed, Swiss improved, Taiwanese manufactured items from France…

I could go on.

And yes, I buy Chinese designed, Chinese made items from China.

I don’t agree with many of the Chinese governments policies, and certainly not with a lot of their past actions. But neither with France, or the USA, or anywhere else for that matter, and especially neither with the UK.

If I was to worry about the politics of the government of the country where I bought goods, I wouldn’t buy anything.

As a matter of interest dogmatix – where were your TV’s made? Your phone? Your computer? Your camera?

Having now reached three pages of response I guess the thing to do is admit this isn’t the place.

I disagree with you, I think that your favour for our own systems is the effect of being born and educated in them and is largely distorted by the fact that you’re not one of the lowest of our society – I’m not sure you’d find many long term homeless folks espousing the virtues of western society.