Apparently, according to Becky, they all loved the manifesto up here. Yeah, right…

So what’s your point? That the labour party should eschew hummus and skinny lattes and go back to pie and chips, flatcapped northern chip on the shoulder bigotry? I look forward to the day when we can use the word darky and **** again without those do-gooders in ‘that’ London having a go at me (you still can in the village I grew up in Newcastle), and drive a not fit for the road smoke belching jalopy without those tree-huggerts banging on about it. Because that’s what ‘northern heartland’ culture is, an insular, bigoted, stuck in the past nest of ***** who can’t see past the end of their street. Nandy is probably right that the labour party needs to win back these people, but it will turn away millions who don’t see hummus and vegans as a threat to their way of life.

One point about those stupid comments from Nandy is the guff about “beat narrow divisive nationalism with a social justice agenda.”

1) the nationalism of the SNP is not narrow and divisive.
2) the SNP already run with a social justice agenda that is in some ways more radical than anything the labour party have done or proposed in generations

Labour need to make ground in Scotland. Apart from anything else IMO the SNP need a decent left wing opposition. In the last decade its the tories that have been the opposition while the labour MSPs have just sat back and sulked.

Making pronouncements that show either no understanding of what is actually happening in Scotland or using false unionist memes to attack the SNP is self defeating

One key thing from recent political histoy in Scotland is we have had a fair number of politicians who ( at least sound like they) are telling the truth as they see it, who do not pretend there are simple answers to complex problems and ( at least appear) honest.

We have got used to this and soundbites simply do not cut it anymore nor do platitudes and ill thought out kneejerk reactions. As a result of the complex voting systems in Scotland and the big independence debate the scots electorate have become more sophisticated and sceptical.

So by saying this Nandy has exposed a huge flaw in her thinking and her political ability. No matter what else she says she has exposed her limitations.

Because that’s what ‘northern heartland’ culture is, an insular, bigoted, stuck in the past nest of ***** who can’t see past the end of their street

Except it isn’t is it? Not even remotely. You’re as guilty of stereotyping as some Eton toff. Though I suspect there are plenty presently at the top of the labour party who share your aloof contempt.

This is what the rugby league club in Lisa Nandy’s Wigan constituency did this morning…

Wigan Warriors confirm Pride Day for Catalans Dragons fixture after Israel Folau signing

How does that fit with your bigoted northerner stereotype, then?

I think that sums up the ‘northern heartlands’ more to me than your summary.

Yes, those stereotypes of people exist in the north, but they were voting Tory/UKIP/Brexit party anyway. I’d . suggest the majority of labour voters are a lot more thoughtful than that, but simply did not and could not identify with the Corbyn ‘Project’

By writing them off as thick racists though, you’re doing exactly what those presently at the top of the labour party are doing. Its easier to do that than look to their own failings, so let’s do that, eh?

the labour MSPs have just sat back and sulked.

That’s not completely fair TJ. A number of them have promoted the Conservative Party as a safe harbour for any British Nationalist voters who want to vote tactically.

I’ll tell you what labour could do to gain ground in Scotland:
Split scottish labour off completely from English labour
Start engaging constructively in Holyrood
Develop policies to split the reluctant independence supporters from the SNP
Become a bit more radical
Stop with stupid soundbites
Refuse all offers of “help” from down south
Start being positive instead of SNP baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad all the time.
Stop telling outright lies that are totally transparent

There is a huge number of floating voters in Scotland right now. Folk like me. I am totally repelled by scottish labour. I was a lifelong labour supporter until ten years or so ago. The antics since they lost power in Holyrood have been totally repellent as was their behaviour in the independence referendum

Ah yes scotroutes – the Ian Murray tendency. Actively promoting anti SNP tactical voting on his facebook page ( via proxies). The problem for scottish labour is they have forgotten who the enemy is.

So what’s your point? That the labour party should eschew hummus and skinny lattes and go back to pie and chips, flatcapped northern chip on the shoulder bigotry? I look forward to the day when we can use the word darky and **** again without those do-gooders in ‘that’ London having a go at me (you still can in the village I grew up in Newcastle), and drive a not fit for the road smoke belching jalopy without those tree-huggerts banging on about it. Because that’s what ‘northern heartland’ culture is, an insular, bigoted, stuck in the past nest of ***** who can’t see past the end of their street. Nandy is probably right that the labour party needs to win back these people, but it will turn away millions who don’t see hummus and vegans as a threat to their way of life.

I knew you would come round….

By writing them off as thick racists though,

https://www.tomforth.co.uk/onintelligence/

In other news, the ‘bastard Tory’s’ just nationalised Northern Rail

Funny old world, eh?

big_n_daft
I think she is the one who scares the Scots Nationalists, not because of the over interpreted comment in an interview, more the likelihood she will start to help the recovery of labour in Scotland

I think most Scottish independence supporters are grateful for her contribution. Every time an English politician comes out with remarks like that it helps our cause.

As for “over interpreted”, I think she was flying a kite, and would have run with it if she’d got a favourable response in the heartlands. It’s the sort of thing that would appeal to the lost gammon Brexit ex-Labour voters. But that’s just my opinion and maybe I’m crediting her with too much intelligence.

Certainly it put her firmly in the Red Tory camp as far as Scotland is concerned and helped drive another nail in Labour’s coffin here.

Just got an email off my constituency labour party to say their nomination/endorsement for leader is Lisa Nandy, with Angela Rayner as deputy

Thats one less for Long Bailey. I doubt she’ll get the vote of many CLP’s, but will be depending on the big unions to stitch it up in her favour

There is no way on earth that the SNP are scared of Nandy.

big_n_daft
I think she is the one who scares the Scots Nationalists

As a Scot, all the candidates scare me – because I don’t think any of them have a chance in hell of taking on BJ and the Tories so we’ll likely have another 10 years with them in charge of the UK and, amongst other things, trying to dismantle existing devolution.

Apparently, she’s the one that worries the Tories the most though

Somewhat unsurprisingly.

They’ll all be rooting for Comrade Len and the sixth formers delivering ‘Becky’

Maybe Labour’s chances in Scotland will be improved by Emily Thornberry. 🙂

You’re as guilty of stereotyping as some Eton toff.

Except I saw it with my own eyes whre I grew up and still see it today pretty much everywhere as soon as you leave the nice cossetted confines of a big city centre or middle class suburb or market town. So who is it the labour party should be targeting if we’re ruling out northern racists and city dwelling latte-drinking hipsters? The trouble is if you ask your average market town normal non-racist working class hummus-hating drone what they think of something like climate change, they’ll probably tell you it’s a load of tree-hugging nonsense, or that it’s ok, because they recycle a few tin cans and plastic bottles. If that’s the answer then I’m out.

As an aside, and a good example of what I’m talking about, at my work there are now quite a few people of differing sexualities, including at least one non-binary person who fairly often wears what would normally be considered non-gender appropriate dress (ie a bloke wearing a skirt). The young metropolitan hipster types and old hippies like me think it’s great, but the salt-of-earth working class lads and lasses from the likes of wigan, bolton etc can’t get their heads around it and can often be heard whispering about poofs and trannies. Despite outward appearances, we still have a very long way to go.

So who is it the labour party should be targeting if we’re ruling out northern racists and city dwelling latte-drinking hipsters?

Why do you think all these groups are mutually exclusive?

Most people, despite your derisive and dismissive opinion of them, are more pragmatic than you think.

If you want to get elected then you have to appeal to as broad a spread of people as possible. That’s the way democracy works. Labour did it in the recent past and won 3 elections (booo… hiss… the bastards!!! IRAQ!!!) by being more open and pragmatic and less idealogical and uncompromising.

The present labour party leadership couldn’t even be bothered trying to appeal to the parts of their own party that they deemed insufficiently ‘on message’, never mind anyone else

Thus delivering the biggest Tory majority for over 3 decades

It’s really not rocket science, is it? Ask Dominic Cummings. Best not ask Seamas or Len though. They still seem to be in denial about how democracy functions. Apparently having a big enough fan club who’ll chant your name at a miners gala will get you the keys to number ten. Somebody really should have a word…

Why do you think all these groups are mutually exclusive?

They’re as mutually exclusive as the hippy left vegans are. This is the whole point. Whether the honourable working class pie eaters of Wigan agree with all this utopian lefty green stuff or not, they’re going to have to get used to it, because it’s the only solution to the civilisation threatening problem of climate change and resource finiteness. The drivers of social mobility (healthcare, education, social security etc), are not going to be possible in a world where the climate heats up to dangerous levels and resources start running out.

The people you deride as the 6th form debating society, are the ones who actually understand the problem and the radical actions that are necessary to combat it. RLB understands it, Starmer understands it, McDonnel, Corbyn and pretty much everyone else on the left understands it, but they’re just being unrealistic dreamers apparently. What’s Nandy’s view? I have no idea because she’s obsessing about people who have their heads in the sand. Although she’s perfectly willing to consider killing millions by launching nuclear weapons as she said today, not to mention sending in the police against those rebellious scots. Pragmatism at it’s worst.

Understanding the problem and understanding how to achieve the solution are not the same thing.

understanding how to achieve the solution

Care to elaborate what that is? Because the message from the moderate, grown up non-sixth formers seems to be not to mention it at all for fear of offending the salt of the earth flat cap wearers in the ‘northern heartlands’. You can’t solve a problem unless you take it on head-to-head with full commitment. Climate change and other relateed issues will not be solved by getting into power by not mentioning it, and then hoping the voters won’t notice when you start to make the necessary changes that are required.

Actually I see n evidence anyone understand the fundamental issues – or certanly is able to articulate them in public. I have not seen anything to make me believe they have either the right or left of the party.

You can’t solve a problem unless you take it on head-to-head with full commitment.

Fully committed, and in opposition.

While I agree with you about getting out there and telling the voters the truth about what we need to do, even in the areas where many don’t want to hear it… you need people who can deliver that message and win people over. Which of the current leadership candidates can do that?

It’s also the exact opposite of what you have been banging on about as regards Brexit.

I have not seen anything to make me believe they have either the right or left of the party.

True, but it’s all relative, and there is a huge difference between what the left and right are proposing. The green new deal is only a start, yet it’s too radical for the ‘grown-ups’.

It’s also the exact opposite of what you have been banging on about as regards Brexit.

My point on brexit was that the result of the referendum should be honoured as to ignore it would undermine the democratic system and something much worse would result. I think I was proved right on that in the end. If, god forbid, we had a referendum on tackling climate change, then I’d say the same thing. But clearly having that referendum would be an increadibly stupid thing to do.

So, if we had a had an “incredibly stupid referendum”, and the result was narrowly “let the world burn”, but some key Labour seats had strong support for “world burning”, because “those green elites talk down to us”, or just to “send a message to London”, you’d expect labour to advocate for the world burning?

Anyway, which of the candidates look up to the job of convincing non-Labour voters of the importance of urgent action on climate change, and get them to vote Labour to achieve that action?

So, if

Completely hypothetical and pointless question. The difference with brexit is that it wasn’t a hypothetical situation. Besides, I don’t think you can compare a civilisation-level threat with membership of a trading bloc, they’re at oppositee ends of the importance spectrum.

which of the candidates look up to the job of convincing non-Labour voters of the importance of urgent action on climate change, and get them to vote Labour to achieve that action?

I haven’t changed my mind. Starmer is the only feasible option, hopefully with RLB as shadow chancellor.

How does that fit with your bigoted northerner stereotype, then?

Pot Kettle black.

The whole of 2019 you used stereotypes for momentum, lefties, Corbynistas etc.

In fact you ran your own campaign.

The left but not left party

Labour are polling dreadfully even with Keir as the favourite.

It’s about more than the leader boys and girls.

Thats one less for Long Bailey. I doubt she’ll get the vote of many CLP’s, but will be depending on the big unions to stitch it up in her favour

The biggest union is backing Starmer, not that I expect you to take notice of a fact that contradicts your prejudices.

Kelvin –

I think he was trying to say that Universities used to teach you how to think, now they teach you what to think.[A bit like Momentum really.]

The huge increase in University intake since the early 90’s has seen numbers almost double. This was achieved in part by introducing ever increasing fees. The cumulative effect has been to see middle class numbers increase whilst working class numbers have tumbled to a trickle.

Labour has become a party for the educated middle classes, seems they’re losing their share of the working class vote though, irrespective of age group.

So you are right, you can educate students into voting for the left. If you don’t vote for Labour you must be stupid or un-educated. If only we could send everyone to university, [or re-education camps] then it’d be a Labour landslide every time. .

It’s about more than the leader boys and girls

Ssshhhhhh…. don’t tell Reg. he still thinks people sing his name at festivals, bless him…

Is someone going to tell him the election result at some point?

You’re right though. Probably best not to have a leader that all but 20 of your own MPs and most of the the countries population don’t think of as a useless, terrorist-sympathising, 70’s throwback, antisemitic old communist

It’s about the policies though comrade

FREE BROADBAND FOR EVERYBODY!!!!

Highest membership EVA! IDST

576000 members

The reason why Nandy is the greatest threat to the SNP isn’t because she has an in depth understanding of Scottish politics. The reason is that she has done a lot of work looking at the issues around towns. Scotland outside the Central belt is essentially towns. Population density is low and distance from power both physically and psychologically large. Labour in Scotland needs to sort itself out and someone pro Union, who wants to level up and has a focus centred on the issues of place can only help.

My view is that she is a listener, a underestimated intellect and more left wing than often portrayed by those who seek to diminish her.

As a potential leader she is a rough diamond, she lacks the polish of Starmer and Thornberry, body language, posture and delivery all need work. She lacks “presence” they have and the resources of Long Bailey.

Politically she has been on a journey and I don’t think it’s stopped. A few years in opposition should see a polished performer with credible policies (subject to conference hospital passes).

Long Bailey is digging a big hole for herself and sinking fast

Starmer (like a lot of labour councillors who were heads of children’s services) can’t hide from the CSE issue when head of the CPS

Thornberry is toxic outside London and probably won’t make the ballot

Of the candidates Nandy fits “least worst”, but there are more positives going for her than that style of thinking would indicate.

Finally the best bit is that she never plays the BAME female tokenism card. Which is another point of PRIDE for Wigan and hopefully carefully observed by the metropolitan classes exemplified by TJ etc

Or maybe not because she is now of the North West and therefore the SE bubble fanboys such as Raybanwomble will just write her off as thick, as anyone who isn’t in London must be

Big_n_daft

Yep.

Starmer may have the ‘experience’ but he’s boring and got too much baggage. The best he could do is plug some holes in a sinking ship.

The best bit about Nandy is the best bit you referred to.

Labours general playing of identity politics is a form of divide and not rule. splitting people into groups just corrals people into a place where the tories can pick them off, group by group. It’s in this respect I think Nandy is the most intelligent of the bunch.

Age doesn’t matter, she’ll grow up in the next five years, I don’t think the others will.

Nandy is zero threat to the SNP simply because she has no understanding of the issues and thus cannot do anything to improve the position of the labour party in Scotland. the key thing to improve the labour partys standing in Scotland is to make it a separate entity to the English party able to formulate their own policies tailored to the scottish situation

zero threat

no understanding of the issues and thus cannot do anything

It’s great to see you’ve left your binary-ness behind these days teeJ and that it’s all nuance for you now.

Labour are polling dreadfully even with Keir as the favourite.

It’s about more than the leader boys and girls.

Seeing that there is no new leader and Labour have not changed in any way the polling with still be dreadful. Get a decent leader and give it 6 months for people to see the leader and the actions the leader has taken (with shadow cabinet, policy etc,.) and see what the polls do.

Its true tho. anyone with the slightest understand of Scotland would not have made that statement especially the bit about fighting nationalism with a social justice agenda – simply because the SNP run a social justice agenda! so wrong on diagnosis, wrong on treatment. Obviously wrong on both.

She may play well in England but until the labour party actually face up to what is happening in Scotland and produce some real policies tailored to the situation they will remain dead in Scotland.

SNP baaaaaaaaad / Union Good has been a disaster for them. More of the same will not change anything and thats all she offered.

I am gutted by the way labour have behaved in Scotland. I supported labour for 40 years

The labour party is finished in Scotland, whoever the leader is. Why? Because there is a credible non-tory party to vote for, which the majority of people are clearly happy to do. A lot of voters in England look enviously at that option. I know I do.

If the labour party in Westminster had any sense, instead of attacking the SNP, which is just bloody stupid and counter-productive, they’d be looking to what the SNP are doing right and learning the lessons to try and appeal to a broader cross-section of voters in the rest of the country.

Minus the nationalism obviously, because despite your assertion that this is a nice, cuddly, inclusive sort of nationalism, ALL nationalism is inherently toxic. The clue’s in the title.

A lot of voters – indeed, the majority – are inherently anti-tory, but held their noses and voted for them, or didn’t vote at all because the labour party, in its present form, is such an electoral basket case. Utterly rudderless and ineffectual, mired in a hopelessly outdated idealogical backwater, with clearly incompetent people at the helm (not to mention the communists behind the scenes), delivering a manifesto which was unbelievable, fantastical money-tree based nonsense (which the voters duly delivered their verdict on).

Only one of the present crop of leadership candidates has even acknowledged that, let alone shown a desire to address it.

One of them gave it ten out of ten and actually just stated ‘our policies were very popular with voters’. Erm…. I can see a problem with that, ‘Becky’…

And she’s apparently the favoured candidate of those at the top of the party and ‘the membership’ as she has clearly stated she wants to deliver more of the same.

Unbelievable.

The labour party in Scotland is not finished at all. They could do plenty to recover their position. The first step needs to be separation from the english party. The reasons for their decline up here are not rooted in the same issues as the english party.

The main issues are that they have forgotten who the enemy is, their utilisation of the Bain principle and their sulky behaviour since they lost power

Agree Scotland is lost and not sure what Labour could do to get back the SNP seats.

Working with the SNP rather than against would be a good start. Stop the petty nonsense of voting down policies just because it wasn’t theirs (like the renationalisation of Scotrail) at all levels of government. Come up with a credible alternative to independence (it’s not like they didn’t give us devolution so why not just go all out with Home Rule for everyone).

I think she is the one who scares the Scots Nationalists, not because of the over interpreted comment in an interview, more the likelihood she will start to help the recovery of labour in Scotland

I have nothing to counter this with other than ROFL.

Labour need to make ground in Scotland. Apart from anything else IMO the SNP need a decent left wing opposition. In the last decade its the tories that have been the opposition while the labour MSPs have just sat back and sulked.

This. Say what you like about them, the Tories are at least competent and try to hold the SNP to account, I honestly can’t remember the last time Labour did anything of note. Probably Gordon Brown in 2014 and he wasn’t even an MSP.

Most people, despite your derisive and dismissive opinion of them, are more pragmatic than you think.

Yeah, like that time they voted for Corbyn anyway because despite it all it was still in their better interests. And like that time we rejected the Leave EU case as it was deomonstrably not in our best interests to go down that dark path.

Oh, wait…

A lot of voters – indeed, the majority – are inherently anti-tory, but held their noses and voted for them, or didn’t vote at all because the labour party, in its present form, is such an electoral basket case.

Something something pragmatism something

The reason is that she has done a lot of work looking at the issues around towns. Scotland outside the Central belt is essentially towns.

So she’s basically no more than a provincial councillor? Excellent, that’s just the sort of heavyweight credentials we’ve been looking for.