The problem with saying that is that this GE had Brexit issue all mashed up with party politics.

Sure, but it’s difficult to find an alternative explanation for Labour Leave constituencies switching en-masse to the Tories.

I think the electorate have made it clear that this is what they want.

The main thing the electorate have made clear is that they’re not going to tolerate being given a decision to make via a referendum and then the politicians not carrying it out, even if it was only an ‘advisory’ one. That could be the only good thing to come out of this. It will take a brave/foolish politician in future who treats the voters as idiots, and it could be Boris’s undoing.

500k Labour members, 80k momentum members. The best candidate will win. If D.A is put forward as the momentum candidate she will not win.

So you think they should’ve gone all out for Remain? The Lib Dem debacle tells you all you need to know about that particular dead end.

The tories made slight gains, the lib dems made slight gains, the story of the results is really labour losses, that is down to the campaign they did run, they got it wrong from start to finish and now we have to pay the price.

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/live-experience/cps/624/cpsprodpb/vivo/live/images/2019/12/13/78037fb4-0216-472c-b419-3d2f4ea786db.png

Seems Corbyn’s back-tracking again. He’s now saying “I won’t lead Labour at the next election” but he’s not resigning. They’re going to have a “period of refection”.

He’ll be bunkered down with Diane Abbott and John McDonnell trying to work out how to stay on for the next 4 and a bit years. Prick.

I’ve always thought Corbyn had a succession problem – dinosaurs of his type died out in the 90s. Jezza, Abbot and McDonnell are some of the few that are left. He was literally the only volunteer from his wing of the party to agree to take on the leadership election in 2015.

So I wondered if Corbyn’s refusing to stand down because he can’t find one of his own to carry the torch and it looks like I may have been right, the two obvious candidates might not want the job:

“I don’t think there is any possible successor who is as blazingly ideological as Jeremy Corbyn. They’d be looking for someone who’s vaguely at that sort of left end of the spectrum. So they’d be looking for, say, Rebecca Long-Bailey – broadly, maybe, in that category – I’m not convinced yet that she’s absolutely decided she wants to be in it. They’d be looking at Angela Rayner – I’ve got a vague hunch that she doesn’t want to be the candidate, we’ll see what she has to say when she speaks on all of these things.” – Pienaar

A lack of a crazy leftie might save the party – we could see a Starmer as leader.

Alan Johnson isn’t just a “usual suspect”, he was the man tasked with leading the Labour Remain campaign in 2016, only to come up against Corbyn’s and his handlers.

+1. Top guy, not exactly on the right of the party and saw how Corbyn/McDonnell work first hand and early on and spoke about it publicly.

Labour should go for P.R as well. If they mean the words of their teary eyed speeches last night then they must.

So labour lose in pretty much every northern heartland leave voting seat and the solution is to put in place a London based lawyer,who architected the very policy which lost those seats and is a passionate, committed remainer? Are you all mental?
It has to be woman. It has to be a leave sympathiser, and it has to be someone who connects with the working class.

Ang Rayner amirite Daz?

Possibly a more centrist politician than many would expect – someone with her legit school of hard knocks background would give the momentum clown circus short shrift I reckon.

The tories made slight gains, the lib dems made slight gains, the story of the results is really labour losses, that is down to the campaign they did run, they got it wrong from start to finish and now we have to pay the price.

Tiny increase in Lib Dem vote from historic low-point proves my point very well. An equivocal Remain position absolutely killed them in their Leave-voting constituencies, where the Tories made very large gains. You know this perfectly well which I guess is why you’re using averages.

So Labour faces an existential choice: does it pursue all-out its newer constituency of the urban middle classes, or try to win back its traditional support.

500k Labour members, 80k momentum members. The best candidate will win. If D.A is put forward as the momentum candidate she will not win.

I don’t agree. Out of any bunch of leadership candidates the most left wing one will win by miles. Partys protect themselves from this [1] by requiring a singificant number of MPs to nominate a candidate. Momentum reduced that number so it will be impossible to prevent hard left candidates from getting nominated. That’s what the huge battles a while back were about and that’s why they all but stopped after the rule change.

Of course, if there is no hard left candidate willing to stand the problem goes away…

[1] All parties have the problem, by definition members are more ‘extreme’ than the average punter – they must be they bothered to join a party. Left to their own devices they choose nutters.

So Labour faces an existential choice: does it pursue all-out its newer constituency of the urban middle classes, or try to win back its traditional support.

Or do what Blair did, appeal to everyone and clean up three times in a row, in spite of the electoral handicap of a deeply unpopular war before the last one.

That may well be possible depending on what state the UK is in in 5 years. If Brexit is an issue for the voters at all it will be a bad issue not a good one.

Or do what Blair did, appeal to everyone

Answer me this honestly, do you think Blair would have managed what he did in 97 today, in an environment of massive brexit-inspired polarisation and slap bang in the middle of culture war? I pretty certain he would have failed, I’m pretty certain anyone would fail. Appealing to everyone will only be possible when the culture war over brexit ends, and for that, I’m afraid, one side, most likely the remainers, are going to have to swallow their pride and accept it.

Ang Rayner amirite Daz?

She’s the obvious choice. Trouble is people like her with real potential are not going to want to be the leader having to preside over a civil war. Just like in the country, things are going to need to get much worse in the labour party before they get better.

Why don’t they get Alan Johnson back? He clearly thinks he knows the answer. Pity he never had the balls to step up when he had the chance.

5 Years seems a long time.

the remainers, are going to have to swallow their pride and accept it.

And brexiteers are going to have to swallow their pride and own it. No excuses any more, you won by hook and crook, now take responsibility for your actions.

And brexiteers are going to have to swallow their pride and own it.

You really don’t get this do you? Everyone, both remainers and brexiters are going to have to own it. When I say accept I actually mean really accept it, as in embracing it and trying to make it work. If remainers, and god forbid the labour party try to frustrate it or stand on the sidelines sneering, then the voters will keep voting for the tories.

Remember when everyone ridiculed Corbyn when he called for article 50 to be enacted after the referendum? Well maybe he was way ahead of everyone else?

That may well be possible depending on what state the UK is in in 5 years. If Brexit is an issue for the voters at all it will be a bad issue not a good one.

Well if Brexit is the calamitous, damaging shit show that the remainers claim it will be then Labour should walk the next election with the country in financial ruin.If on the other hand there is an economic bounce then Boris will be riding high and any labour leader who was a remainer will have that thrown back in his/her face ad nauseam.

Well if Brexit is the calamitous, damaging shit show that the remainers claim it will be then Labour should walk the next election with the country in financial ruin

More likely is that another entity will be held up and vilified as responsible for Britain being unable to prosper.

inability to deal with the anti-semantic issue

was that an assertion or an assumption?

dangerousbeans
Well if Brexit is the calamitous, damaging shit show that the remainers claim it will be then Labour should walk the next election with the country in financial ruin

More likely is that another entity will be held up and vilified as responsible for Britain being unable to prosper.

Well we have been overdue another recession for quite some time now. Maybe another EU banking default like Italy which has been teetering for a while now might trigger something.

I predict Keir Starmer will be the next Labour leader …

Grace Blakeley saying Labour were not radical or socialist enough to win on Radio4 right now. Really.

Or do what Blair did, appeal to everyone and clean up three times in a row, in spite of the electoral handicap of a deeply unpopular war before the last one.

I’m not sure Labour actually want / wanted to win. Blair / Campbell showed them how to do it and they still refuse to admit they were ever part of Labour, written out of their history as an abhorrent accident. They just seem to prefer losing with honour. I fully expect them to pick another extreme left wing nut job and continue the noble battle. Took Kinnock years to clean out Labour after the Millitants, the same thing has to happen again before they stand any hope of winning an election.

Richard Burgon for leader…….

Rumours that he’s going to get nominated and voted for by entrists from the Monster Raving Loony party are fake news

Grace Blakeley saying Labour were not radical or socialist enough to win on Radio4 right now. Really.

I heard that and laughed out loud.

Answer me this honestly, do you think Blair would have managed what he did in 97 today,

I think he probably would. He sold positivity when things looked bleak. As bleak as they do now. A vote for New Labour meant a vote for a better future for everyone. Corbyn sold fear, if you don’t vote for me the Tories will ruin you, unless you’re a billionaire.

Corbyn looked weak on Brexit, Leavers didn’t believe he’d leave, Remainers didn’t believe he’d actually deliver a fair and reasonable 2nd Ref. Corbyn’s message was actually decent. They couldn’t just revoke A50, even if they won because they’re the Opposition (the Libs cauld because any party that goes from 12 MPs to a majority government has a clear mandate to do anything they promised pre-election) but a 2nd, real-world, real-deal ref would settle the matter. Blair could have sold that as the responsible, reasonable thing to do with an easy to follow Soundbite “Get Brexit Done” could have been weaponized for Labour- the choice between either remaining or a quick and easy Brexit saying within the Common Market etc, or years of ‘chaos’ with Boris negotiating deals with most of the globe. Corbyn just looked like a man forced down a road he didn’t want to take.

The tories made slight gains, the lib dems made slight gains, the story of the results is really labour losses, that is down to the campaign they did run, they got it wrong from start to finish and now we have to pay the price.

Agreed – they **** it right from the day they backed May on A50.

Corbyn looked weak on Brexit, Leavers didn’t believe he’d leave, Remainers didn’t believe he’d actually deliver a fair and reasonable 2nd Ref

+1

His tactic alienated both sides, it was almost offensive in that it seemed like he thought both sides were thick.

Blair could have sold that as the responsible, reasonable thing to do with an easy to follow Soundbite “Get Brexit Done” could have been weaponized for Labour

+1

Save us Tony, you’re our only hope.

Richard Burgon for leader…….

Rumours that he’s going to get nominated and voted for by entrists from the Monster Raving Loony party are fake news

He’s on LBC now, it’s hilarous. Comical Ali.

.

I think they need to look seriously at kicking momentum into touch.

If the local activists in my area are anything to go by, no wonder the “traditional” supporters left. I’ve seen constant, vocal, aggressive and condescending attacks on anyone who dared question anything about labour or JC, continual repetition of “you’re all idiots/nazis/selfish tory scum” type rhetoric from them. And who was ever won over by a sanctimonious, middle class suburban c*** sneering at them for not being “socialist” enough when their primary concern is putting food on the table right here, right now.

Get that destructive and reputationally damaging faction out and they might be able to rebuild.

I think they need to look seriously at kicking momentum into touch.

Yup. We need some kind of cross between Alistair Campbell and John Wick to purge the pricks out of the party.

So who has the resolve to do it?

If the local activists in my area are anything to go by, no wonder the “traditional” supporters left. I’ve seen constant, vocal, aggressive and condescending attacks on anyone who dared question anything about labour or JC, continual repetition of “you’re all idiots/nazis/selfish tory scum” type rhetoric from them. And who was ever won over by a sanctimonious, middle class suburban c*** sneering at them for not being “socialist” enough when their primary concern is putting food on the table right here, right now.

They were talking about “thousands” of activist volunteers doorknocking on the radio this morning. I did wonder what sort of person they were and how many votes they gathered verses how many they put off.

Get that destructive and reputationally damaging faction out and they might be able to rebuild.

Blair swept them under the carpet for a short while but I can’t see anyone in the current Labour leadership who is willing or able to do that. Vocal, aggressive and condescending underdogs seems to be their preferred stance.

Web Streeting on Sky.

He is angry enough to be a good attack dog for the Blairites.

He’s having an epic rant.

Blair…

I think he probably would. He sold positivity when things looked bleak. As bleak as they do now. A vote for New Labour meant a vote for a better future for everyone. Corbyn sold fear, if you don’t vote for me the Tories will ruin you, unless you’re a billionaire.

Completely agree with this. Corbyn is a good protester, as are several other members of the party. He’s a crap politician, especially when put on the spot and having to think. He puts people on the defensive with a divisive us and them attitude.

I wasn’t a huge fan at the time, but Blair is very intelligent, able to rip people to pieces in an argument. And if there is a positive argument for his stance he can articulate it incredibly well making it difficult to argue with him. And of course, if there isn’t, he’ll create one, just like politicians do.

He’s having an epic rant.

They’re all going to be piping up in the next week or so. Totally pointless, and it’ll only make things worse, but they probably need to get it off their chests. Of course the fact they’re all complicit in it has probably passed them by, but if they think the left are going to simply disappear then they’re mistaken.

Angela Raynor, please.

They’re all going to be piping up in the next week or so. Totally pointless, and it’ll only make things worse, but they probably need to get it off their chests. Of course the fact they’re all complicit in it has probably passed them by, but if they think the left are going to simply disappear then they’re mistaken.

Then they will be out of power for more than the 15 years it took them to bounce back from 83. How does a labour government in 2040 sound to you?

Oh and Rayner suffers from the same lack of ability to beat people in arguments like Corbyn.

I’m not sure anyone believes the left will disappear.

It’s whether they’ll ever get elected that’s the more important question

Of course the fact they’re all complicit in it has probably passed them by,

Web Streeting specifically said the PLP, including him, were complicit (he might even have used that word). He openly admitted they’ve known as long as everyone else that Jezza was a liability, well longer.

I’d never heard of him before. Hope they get rid of Momentum and he stands as leader. Articulate guy, I have strong urge to vote for him.

I’m not sure anyone believes the left will disappear.

And why should they need to? The problem here wasn’t the policies, well apart from the one suicidal one we all love to talk about, but if they could marry a halfway likeable leader with the policies that everyone likes then they could recover very quickly. If Corbyn proved anything it’s that supposedly hard left, but not hard left at all policies like rail nationalisation are sellable.

The more I think about it, the more the name Lisa Nandy pops into my head.