New Cotic – the BFeMax

Here’s an odd thing I noticed form the PB comments. Cotic void warranty on FS bikes if you change the shock. That’s an odd one – can understand if it was a different size shock, but any other shock? Do they use a very inusual tune?

From the site:

Full suspension: the warranty on droplink frames is void if used with a different shock than the one supplied with the frame.

Lots to agree with in that blog post of yours chakaping.

Well I tried it so many different ways, there’s bound to be something for everyone.

Nice yellow grips too, eh?

I preferred the ones I have now.

= ;87)

Still with the slack seat tube angle.

Weird!

Yeah, noticed that. The large would be great for me if it weren’t for the long TT resulting from the STA.

“Still with the slack seat tube angle.

Weird!”

Is it slack in reality though? 74.5 deg at any height, is steeper than the actual figure on many full-sus bikes with effective angles of 77 deg, once you take sag uphill into account.

I suspect this will be an absolute monster truck. The 27.5 is a stupidly capable bike and by all accounts so is the Solaris. I do wonder if some lighter faster builds will appear on the Solaris now with this the ‘enduro’ hardtail.

That’s the route I’ve gone down with my Solaris. It’s built up with 120mm Pikes at the moment but considering trying out a set of the new 35mm SID forks with the same travel to shed some weight. I reckon with a few pounds knocked off it then I’d have a great bike for 12h racing and long days out as it’s very capable and very comfortable.

The original Solaris was used by a few folk for XC racing and they didn’t hang around on them btu that was probably more down to the riders than the bikes.

Are Cotic so determined to keep me from a new Solaris that they’ll not only update every model in the range but actually introduce new ones before restocking?

The BFeMax is going to be a heck of a thing on rough terrain. It should probably be bought by downhillers as a winter bike or a hardtail for people who live somewhere like the lakes, but will probably end up getting bought by a lot who’d be better on the Solaris.

That said, the travel numbers are interesting- a 140mm bike that can handle 160 is the same as 120/140 on the solaris and I wonder how many you see at 120?

“But there is also a vocal community that sees anything that isn’t slacker and longer than the previous version of the model as being “not very progressive””

I don’t think Cotic made geometry changes just for the sake of it. Cy has done a load of blogs/emails about the process and refining the geo, he very much believes in it

Very good point, but with the 29er hardtail range now being split in two, will we see the ‘progressive’ fans being steered towards the BFe and the XC’ers and bikepackers given something a bit more what in broad terms would be called “conservative” but is more suitable for their requirements?

I think we’re probably not far off ‘peak progressive’. Sure, there’ll always be crazy outliers, but there’s only so long you can make a bike within the confines of the size range before it becomes the next size up.

I reckon the next iteration of the Solaris (which must be soon, surely) will simply have a slightly steeper seat angle.

Highly unlikely to go steeper and shorter, as it’s been hugely popular as it is – and can be very versatile (as per my review).

Next bike will be the Soulrat.

Different thought process as opposed to over thinking I reckon. Some folk want a nice bike, but don’t have a lot of money and can only afford one. The Bfe, in most cases that I know of, which is only a small sample of six over lots of years, was purchased as an alternative to the Soul. Not as a second bike as an only bike that was considerably cheaper than the other model.

If I was in the market for a 29 HT then the Bfe would be on the cards now whereas the Solaris wouldn’t due to price. Other folk will be in a similar position. I can’t imagine many folk owning a Solaris and the new Bfe.

Prehaps didn’t explain very well as that was really my point, it’s a cheaper bike that then becomes an option for people who can’t/won’t stretch to a Solaris. The comment about current owners was more that they might decide to change to the new one, not get both necessarily. They won’t buy another Solaris because they have one but might a new bFe.

I don’t think Cotic made geometry changes just for the sake of it. Cy has done a load of blogs/emails about the process and refining the geo, he very much believes in it

Come on mate, he’s following what people currently want so he can sell more bikes! Nothing wrong with that but lets get it right.

Mad to think we used to ride bikes this tiny! (This was the original BFe doing the Mega):

(And he’d still be far quicker on that than I am on my modern bike!)

Look at the size of the new one:

“Come on mate, he’s following what people currently want so he can sell more bikes! Nothing wrong with that but lets get it right.”

I don’t think you can assume that, especially of any company which is wholly owned by one person, who is someone who not only designs the products but loves using those products.

I run a similar small business in another sector and I could make more money chasing trends, cutting costs, playing the usual model cycle games, messing with prices and discounts and other retail shenanigans, etc. But I don’t want to to do that, it’s not what motivates me to run my business – I want to make the best products possible for the thing that I love (we make guitar and bass amplification gear). I also want to make products that last and last, that hold their value, that never end up as landfill.

And I’ve always got the impression that Cy and the team and Cotic have a similar attitude. You have to make the finances work but it’s not just about the money for all of us entrepreneurs.

chestrockwell

Come on mate, he’s following what people currently want so he can sell more bikes! Nothing wrong with that but lets get it right.

I’d have thought the opposite, that being safe and middle of the road would probably sell more.

It looks a mess with the dropper post hose routing, surely there’d be a cleaner way to do it? Same applies to that seat tube brace, although I guess that’s the preferred look for a “hardcore” hardtail.

I think the BFe has been redundant for years, there can’t be that many people who want such an overbuilt hardtail? People only really bought it based on cost, since it was traditionally a good bit cheaper than the Soul, but these same people would’ve really been better off on the Soul as it’s more appropriate for trail centre fun and big days out in the hills. The BFe was really too stiff and heavy for this, and better suited to DH tracks, jump trails etc.

I wonder if the Soul is likely to get an update soon? The Solaris Max with large volume tyres would cover 99% of what the new BFe will, only the downhillers who like to ride hardtails (of which there must be few?) would be left wanting for more?

forked

I wonder if the Soul is likely to get an update soon?

I have bad news for you……

I wonder if the Soul is likely to get an update soon?

Keep up at the back.

They announced it was getting canned last week.

Soul has been discontinued along with the Roadrat, so no update likely. I’d love to see something like the Whyte Friston, Marin Gestalt x11 or Genesis Fugio from Cotic. Had an Escapade, but it was too close to the road end of the spectrum. I reckon Cotic could do something interesting in that field.

On the subject of Cotic chasing the market… hardly.

They were a bit reluctant to get with market trends a few years ago, then it seemed Cy got dragged up to date by riders and his staff. Since then they appear to have taken a careful approach, thoroughly testing new geometry ideas and picking what they think works.

I’d say they have more integrity than the majority of bike brands when it comes to that kind of thing.

That shock warranty thing is a bit weird and warrants an explanation though.

“I think the BFe has been redundant for years, there can’t be that many people who want such an overbuilt hardtail? People only really bought it based on cost, since it was traditionally a good bit cheaper than the Soul, but these same people would’ve really been better off on the Soul as it’s more appropriate for trail centre fun and big days out in the hills. The BFe was really too stiff and heavy for this, and better suited to DH tracks, jump trails etc.

I wonder if the Soul is likely to get an update soon? The Solaris Max with large volume tyres would cover 99% of what the new BFe will, only the downhillers who like to ride hardtails (of which there must be few?) would be left wanting for more?“

You have to read the recent Cotic newsletters, your analysis is almost perfectly upside down!

Oh heck, bad news about the Soul. I imagined with all these ultra efficient, lightweight, long travel trail bikes, long travel hardtails would’ve been made redundant.

That shock warranty thing is a bit weird and warrants an explanation though.

I think Cy touched on that in his latest downtime podcast https://youtu.be/4qEJpuPcULM (worth a listen) – something to do with people getting an incorrectly set up shock causing too much load on the shock mounts / downtube (especially with sudden bottom out) and then resulting damaged frames. I was only half listening / a bit above my head being only a HT rider 🙂

Has anyone ever actually broken a soul or solaris by riding it too hard?

My back wheel and my ankles would go long before I reached the abuse limit of even an XC whippet bike.

Here’s an odd thing I noticed form the PB comments. Cotic void warranty on FS bikes if you change the shock. That’s an odd one – can understand if it was a different size shock, but any other shock? Do they use a very inusual tune?

From the site:

Full suspension: the warranty on droplink frames is void if used with a different shock than the one supplied with the frame.

Seems a bit weird I thought they did a shockless option??

Seems a bit weird I thought they did a shockless option??

I bought a Rocketmax in January without a shock. There was no mention that I’d have no warranty!

I seem to have spectacularly failed with the quotes….

I bought a rocketmax without shock too, I am running the not recommended coil though, any way, still want a bfe!

Mark – same here. It’s a Cane Creek il coil (which they used to spec). I wonder what the warranty would be?

I’d definitely like a bfe, but I’ll be sticking to my Ragley Big Wig for now!

Build up video on Hardtail Party already! Brilliant work Cotic for shipping him the frame. Can’t wait to see what Steve has to say about the ride.

Thanks for all the interest in the bikes, and in the brand. I really appreciate it.

In answer to broader questions about the SolarisMAX, I think the move to 140mm fork along with the Longshot geometry did give a slightly skewed impression of us repositioning the bike in the market. We defintely had demand for people putting 140mm forks on it, but for us the sweet spot was always around 120mm, with a nice all round build. We have recently recognised that our build kits don’t perhaps reflect the full breadth of more XC type riding the SolarisMAX is great at, and just because it’s long and (relatively) slack, doesn’t mean it’s not good for XC. The SolarisMAX takes apart singletrack like you wouldn’t believe. You always have to remember the key with Longshot geometry is the 35mm stem. It keeps the handling responsive and pin sharp. Of course what happens when we amplified it to 140mm was people were asking if they could ‘sneak’ 150 or 160mm forks on it, which you REALLY can’t. So, clearly there was a demand for the BFeMAX, because we didn’t want to dilute the all round appeal of the SolarisMAX. And as many people have rightly pointed out, the relationship the BFe has would our all rounder 853 hardtails means we can make the price a little more accessible for some people too. And yes, the numbers are fairly similar between the two frames, but then until 2017 the BFe and Soul shared the EXACT same geometry, so the lines have always been closely related. The key thing is that if you’re into 140mm forks, and you’re not too concerned about a little more weight, the BFeMAX does work better. That 1.5 deg on the seat angle is a big difference in positioning at seat saddle height, and the BB is lower too. Just because they have different names, doesn’t mean all the geometry has to get changed. Rad geometry is still rad!

And as for the RocketMAX warranty situation, you can on longer get a Cotic droplink bike with a no shock option, and here’s what I wrote on Pinkbike in response to that post:

“Sorry you’re upset with our decision, and i really appreciate you being keen on a RocketMAX. However, with the Gen2 bike we learnt the hard way that all these different shocks that have proliferated are not created equal, and without guidance from our experience they can get setup wrong too. If that then leads to a component or frame failure, or rider injury, that’s all still on us regardless of what has happened outside of what we have tested and what we know.

We are a small company, and these things are a major concern. Especially when as the bike designer and company owner it would be me up in court with a judge asking if i had done everything i could to prevent [insert horrible rider injury here]. It’s not something we have experienced before as a business, so we had to take steps to control the risk for us and for our customers. We will be introducing more (air) shock options as we get a chance to test them, get a base tune on them and sign them off with the bike. Pretty much everyone here prefers the tunability of air shocks and the big can shocks have such great performance that we want to offer that first because in our opinion that works best on our bikes. If that doesn’t line up with your preferences, that’s cool. We are all different, and although we’re sorry to lose you as a potential customer, you would be better off on another brand that supports your shock preferences (hopefully with the same level of testing and insight we put into our bikes). Ultimately we want to build rad bikes we like, share them with like minded riders and keep everyone safe, healthy and having fun.

Hope that gives a small insight into where we are coming from, and that you are willing to see our point of view at least.”

Cheers,

Cy

Hi Cy, thanks for the response on the RocketMAX (I hadn’t seen that on PB). Is the shock stipulation only for the gen 3?

Great job on the new bfe, looks amazing

It for the Gen3 as that’s the only one we can still control, but I wouldn’t be keen on running anything out of the ordinary on the Gen2 either.

Interesting post, Cy. I was always one to look at “designed for 100-140mm forks” on the website and think “Ok, it needs a 140mm fork” – loved my Soul that way. Never really considered the Solaris with less.

Also – any hints re. new SolarisMax colours/tweaks?

I love Cotic, and I love Cy – why the hell do I only have an old Roadrat from them that I hate?!?!?

I need a BFe.

Well, I really don’t need a Bfe, but I badly want one!

(I should mention for the record that I have encouraged a Solaris and Solaris max purchase from friends in recent years)

Great to hear from Cy himself, they may be close (I looked at the geo this morning and thought the same) but the Soul and BFe were always the same geo until a few years ago as Cy says, with the BFe being a bit cheaper, heavier, and sturdier with the ability to run longer forks for people who really wanted to smash through stuff and hit big jumps etc, Cy and team always said MOST people would be better off on the Soul.

Lots of people now seem to have shunned 650b wheels in favour of 29″, the Soul has gone (I’m gutted) so it seems a natural fit for the rowdiest hardtail to be made in the currently most popular wheel size. The old 26″ BFe was the cheap(er) but still nice option to chuck your old parts on and smash about, I guess the 650b version will inherit that role in time.

I haven’t ridden a Solaris since the Gen2 but would like a go on the current or last generation, as I wonder how BOOST, thru axles etc affects the XC-ish type nature of the bike. Not sure how frame weights compare across the generations of Solaris and if the back end stiffness takes away from the ride quality? @cy

I’ve always thought the bikes I’ve ridden were short as I have a long torso and arms, so ‘progressive’ geometry just feels right to me (even at 6ft on large Cotics I’ve traditionally run 70mm stems), and a 66 degree head angle isn’t that mental compared to (twitchy and not fun in techy stuff to me) 70 degree XC bikes, so I reckon the SolarisMAX geometry is about bang on for general mountain biking, including XC, even racing, with 120mm forks.

I’m on a first generation 650b Flare and it’s perfect for what we all call trail/enduro riding now for me, I’d not be fast or good enough to warrant a bigger bike, and certainly don’t want a heavier one with bigger wheels for the techy stuff, my local woods are tight and twisty.

Cool but not for me. Solaris max in purple please!

It’s all about brand value

Worked fine for Chromag with their BC vs Taiwan frames.

I don’t feel I’d need to go any befe’r than the Solaris max for anything locally. It my balls that are the limiting factor, not the frame 😉

Also – any hints re. new SolarisMax colours/tweaks?

This!

Slightly off-topic – but its always baffled me why Cotic didn’t develop the Simple, as a UK brand surely its a no-brainer to have a singlespeed(able) bike in the range for the 9 months of the year when its not dry? Or has singlspeed mtb had its time in the mud? My hardtail is exclusively run singlespeed.

I’m seriously tempted. Got a current gen Soul that’s a very capable do-it-all, had a BFe that I loved, not really feeling it with my expensive 27.5” carbon full suss (it’ll be me, not the bike), never really given 29ers a fair shot…

I guess I’m looking for something that can replace both, that I can pedal up to the forest, which is about 35-40 mins climbing, mainly road, then usual Peak District rocky / fast kind of stuff mixed in with mucking about on loamy singletrack for a couple of hours and head home + the occasional trail centre or big day out.  Something that’s as much fun as my Transition Scout was… Barking up the right tree or should I wait for the SolarisMax? Or something else entirely!

It’s a fine looking bike for sure.