New Cotic?

or uber-rock Highland descent

Humm where is that?

Humm where is that?

It’s all of them, just with Slayer on your iPod.

New email:

Me again.

After an overwhelming response to yesterdays’ email, I wanted to drop you a line to say thanks and to let you know the result, and answer some questions.
Firstly, the vast majority of people who responded are saying that our Option1 frame, the mid-travel steel front end frame for 120-140mm forks, is the one they want. It seems our suspicions were correct and plenty of our love the look and idea of the Rocket, but want something a little shorter travel, lighter and nippier. So, your wish is our command and we’ll be focusing on developing the mid-travel ‘mini’ Rocket into production. There’s still a bit of work to do, so expect something in production probably next summer.

A few points I picked up are worth drawing out and explaining though.

Firstly weight. Quite few mentioned about the frame weight on the mid-travel frame would be good down at 6lb or below. I’m sure it would, but this is moon-on-a-stick territory for a bike like this made from metal, be that steel or aluminium. The only way you’re making a tough, stiff bike like this at that weight is with carbon. A good few of you sited the Blur TRc as an ace concept ‘if only the frame wasn’t nearly £3,000’. Well, that’s where you’re at building a hard riding bike at 5.3lbs frame weight.

This frame will be a good bit lighter than the Rocket, but it’ll be in the 6.5lb+ weigh bracket because I won’t sacrifice durability I want from any of our products or the stiffness than makes the Rocket so ace. The key thing is that the shorter travel suits a lighter build. When I went out to Portugal with AQR Holidays in March, I took my Rocket with tubeless’d Maxxis IKON tyres, swapped my Reverb for a lightweight rigid post, and popped a smaller front rotor on the bike. It was already running Fox Float 32 150’s which are pretty light, and the bike was down at sub-29lbs with pedals. With a lighter frame, lighter wheels and lighter 120mm forks, you’re looking at knocking another pound or so off this, and my bike has full XT and Magura brakes and nothing fancy in terms of finishing kit. The mid-travel bike will easily build into a good weight build which will suit it.

Secondly, we got a few votes for a 100mm travel frame but with slack-as-you-dare angles on a 120mm fork. The reason this isn’t on the table is because I have some experience with this kind of set up, and although it seems attractive the reality is less rosey. When I was developing the geometry for the new bikes I had some K9 anglesets for the Hemlock. With the -2deg cups in from the Rocket geometry development, I then set about trying to get something short/mid-travel that I liked. I tried out a really radical option for a while, the Hemlock with 120mm rear travel, 120mm forks at 67.5deg head angle, REALLY low BB. It completely ripped on smoother trails with flowing corners, but I found it hard to climb on compared to the Rocket geometry because of the low BB and the slack angles just didn’t seem to suit the shorter travel. However, the key thing that pushed me away from this option is that 120mm forks aren’t stiff enough for the situations the geometry gets you into. You’re on this stable, confidence inspiring little firecracker of a thing, blasting down some rocks and you get to a very obvious point in the speed where the forks suddenly aren’t stiff enough to deal with the speed you’ve got up, and everything gets very scarey in a the-bike-is-trying-to-kill-me kind of way. These were QR15 Fox forks, not QR. I also wrecked a mid-weight rear rim, again because of the speed the geometry insighted. So, basically you’d need a stiffer longer travel fork reduced in travel to sort the front end, and stronger heavier wheels to take the beating. At which point everything weighs as much as the longer travel bike, but this one is limited in the rocks by it’s reduced travel. Fail.

The best option I ended up with was something slightly steeper (the mid-travel development bike is similar shape to the crazy slack Hemlock test bike, except for a 68.5 deg head angle on 120mm forks). With the sharper handling and shorter wheelbase it’s nippier in tight singletrack and whips around berms at trail centres, yet is kind of naturally self limiting on rockier terrain without being too scary. The 140mm option on the mid-travel bike takes the head angle back to 67.5deg again, but the longer travel and stiffer platform of the bigger fork can cash the cheques the geometry is writing which makes it a lot of fun on rockier sections. 67.5 is still around 0.5deg steeper than the Rocket with 140mm forks, so the bike is still a little shorter and steeper overall, a little less ‘gravity’.

Third point – we got a few people asking about 100mm rear, 140mm front. We always get a bit of this, and whilst it’s not currently in the plan, the bolted and bonded construction method we use on the shock mounting means it is possible to do a small run of the steel frame with a different shock mount to suit a shorter shock. Something for once we’re in production, and it would definitely be hefty deposits only. Can’t see a huge market, but if enough people put their money where their mouth is we can make it happen.

Finally, a lot of people mentioning bigger wheels. I specifically didn’t throw that into the mix here because the shorter 26″ platform is the one we were specifically concerned about. I am working on a 29″ version of the droplink platform which I will hopefully be able to show you prototypes of in the new year. We’ve not looked at all at 650b, and I’m surprised quite so many people mentioned it. It seems the marketing is working 😉 I will look at it at some point, but having measured up some wheels it’s so close to 26″ that it’s not high on my list of priorities right now.
Thanks again for being involved. It’s been really useful, and I really appreciate your time and thoughts.

Cheers,

Cy

OK,OK, you win, i’ll do the test riding, sheesh.

My old stumpy is set up 125/140 and its super sweet,a winning combo

i’ll do the test riding

Cy I’m quite a bad rider. I could even hire an Audi. So I’d be representative of your customers (STWers). So if you need someone to test how it rides…I’m your man.

I was surprised to find my `old’ Stumpy frame was only 1lb heavier than my Soul at 5.4lb.

Now this all sorted (well kind of)…Cy can I also suggest that you introduce a custom colour scheme much like Orange or Santa Cruz. Even being able to pick from the orange, green and blue on each bike would be brilliant and I’d be happy…(checks wallet)…to pay a bit more too!

Scamper – really? [start playing Dvorak, New World No 5] Good old bus the stumpy they’re still as good as most bikes out there I reckon, mines an 06 comp, eeh she could tell a few tales, a triggers brush special she is, but she’s definitely starting to feel the years/abuse/lack of maintenance…as such it’d be nice to have a slightly firmer start to the suspension stroke without the platform damping/would be good to see a more progressive spring rate/nice to have a stiffer rear end/internal cable routing/tapered head tube for 16% increase in lateral stiffness/virtually any bullsh*t excuse to buy a new bike – in hot pink

Have a 5.Spot and a Flux (I’m a mug for Turner basically). Have to say that the Flux is every bit the bike for 90% of the riding that I do and can handle the other 10%, albeit not as fast as the 5.Spot. Took it around the long loop at Penmachno last weekend. Seriously eroded in places, so way more black than red for the majority of it. Flux kept up with 160mm Enduro no probs. Honestly think that lots of bikes we ride in this country are over-gunned, but fully appreciate that its ultimately down to the individual. therefore, my vote would be for the 100mm, but I guess that that bird has already flown.

Finally 😀 A 120mm to 140mm travel steel framed full sus gets my man bits fizzing in anticipation, for years i’ve held off buying a full sus as i have an irrational hatred of alloy hydroformed bikes and as for carbon?….Pffft! – a bike should look like a bike not some god-forsaken monstrosity of a multi legged squatting/shitting dog like so many uglies out there, shameful to admit but a bike should have looks along with function and a clearly defined fit for purpose ability. Sounds ideal for my type of riding Cy, when can we order one?, if you need extensive testing done bring it up to Galloway, we’ll treat you to some sweet off piste big hill trails up here along with the usual 7stanes stuff.

(Kenny here, I spoke to paul on sat)

Cy
Great review, the problem is always building in strength, as these bikes are going to be ridden hard by some.
As well as a light “woods” Soul I have an Orange five with two complete wheel sets the bike then weighs either 27.5 or just under 29 lbs BUT completely different in character. I only run 140 mm bolt throughs and Maxle back end.
Which is why going to a 100 mm fs soul would be the one for me!

Make a prototype (68 head with a firm 120 up front and 100 rear) in large and i’ll buy it when your done. Seems like a few others would like that type of bike also.

Too late for the vote, not that it matters because a full sis bike is not on my radar. But for my tup-pence worth, how about a proper, as in 21″, Soul with swappable drop-outs, so I can run it SS? Or even resurrect the 26″ wheeled Simple?

However, the key thing that pushed me away from this option is that 120mm forks aren’t stiff enough for the situations the geometry gets you into.

Is a 150mm Rev really *that* much stiffer than a 120 Reba thru axle (or equivalent models for Fox)?

Yes. It’s partly stiffness, partly travel, but my preference on the Rocket is a light ish 150mm 32 stantion fork which I have no trouble with at all. As you can see from my letter I got myself into some deep scary trouble on similar geometry bike with shorter travel.

I’m sure Cy knows more about marketing mountain bikes than me, but I’m not sure who would actually buy a mini Rocket. In theory I’m the target demographic. I think the Rocket looks good and could be ideal for the sort of natural Scottish trail riding I enjoy, but I worry that it may be too much bike. So a 120/140 version sounds great and may get a few more people looking at the brand. But, unless it is significantly lighter or handles significantly better than the existing Rocket I expect I’d end up thinking that I might as well have the extra travel just in case I ever need it.

It will be interesting to see what Cy does with the bigger wheels though. There are definitely some gaps in the market there.

Cheers

Andy

I think it sounds great. By the sound of it the frame will weigh 2lb ish more than than a Soul, plus a bit of extra weight for the longer fork, which isn’t a massive hike. Think I might be sold, I’ve been considering something similar to a TRC which isn’t crazy money!

A longer fork as 20mm 130-150 Revs only add on circa 80g to a QR Reba weight. Going on what Cy suggests, looking at my reasonably tough 1×9 Soul build which includes Revs, Arch EX and 180/180 Deore brakes you’d be looking at a 27-28lb bike depening on tyre choice. Be interesting to see the price, though.

Obviously price isn’t set at all yet, but I can’t see why anything we’re doing would mean it costs more than the Rocket, so I’d expect similar pricing. Major variable will be what shocks cost by the time we’re in a position to sell some.

Cy
Fastest bike I have been on recently was a 140 mm 29 er, so fast it needed air brakes, well into warp speed. Crashes probably leading to an orthopaedic unit visit! However the biggest problem is rim strength , as they were being trashed at a regular rate due to the impact speed. Bigger tyres, yep ok but then you have a 2 kg plus rotating mass!
So the best 29 er for my skills/self preservation was a lightweight 120 mm full sus 29er,
Just a thought!!

I’d still just buy a rocket.

A rocket won’t be that much heavier than the shorter travel bike and already is supposed to handle “like a short travel bike, until you need the extra travel”.

The top tube is pretty much the same length as the Soul, so wouldn’t be worried about it being too long.

Oh hold on… a Rocket is still quite slack by comparison… hmm. Not sure.

Yes I am. Still want a Rocket.

Rockette?
Pocket Rocket?

Surely this frame has to be £1000-1200? Or you just may as well buy the rocket which can cover all based?

Must be nearing completion? 😀