Afternoon all,

My missus left home in an ambulance yesterday morning and is now enjoying the local tropical diseases department for a few days, probably only dengue (and looking a lot better than some other cases who left their doors open…). What could make her feel better and more loved than me building up a tandem for us to spend quality moments together with absolutely no arguments?!

I have, of course, been accumulating bits for a while and was wanting to do it on the budget-y side as I’m not used to tandem and she’s not used to MTB… I had been planning to get a Xperia 5029 frame, which were only about €489 from what appears to be the shop (CR2V) linked to the manufacturer. However, last week the manufacturer website just disappeared (so I can’t link to it) and the shop website would no longer let me progress to the checkout. The Xperia FB page was updated last week but no reply to the message I sent. The shop did reply in French texto speek but hasn’t since responded. Does anyone know what has happened to Xperia/CR2V?

If they are no longer in business, what are my options? I have searched through some MTB tandem websites but mostly they’re expensive custom jobbies or the linked website doesn’t seem to make tandems any more. I’m after a 29er frame, boosted or not (haven’t bought wheels yet but the fork is 15*100), not full sus. And not squillions. Help me?

Cheers,

Gaidong

Try JB tandems?  Landscape?  do they do frame only?  Most tandems you see are bought as full bikes.  the stock answer for a cheapish but worthwhile MTB tandem is the dawes double edge.
Try the tandem club?

https://www.tandems.co.uk/m4b0s8p0/Tandem-Frames-and-Forks/Frames maybe outside your budget?

Thanks for that, looking now.

This is even cheaper than Xperia – http://www.speed-cycles.com/cadre-tandem-vtt-29275-aluminium-c1387431-exs-24808-p.asp – and apparently still in business! Not keen on that rear tyre clearance though…

Wow – that is a good price for an MTB tandem frame, but yes would Def be looking for something that takes a nice fat back tyre even with obligatory shock post 😉

Or I could stick a 27.5 wheel in the back with a fairly mahoosive tyre? What is the girth (snigger) equivalent to a 29*2.2?

The french are well into TTT at they call it – tandem tout terrain.  It where I first saw one 15 or more years ago so I would hazard a guess that they do make good frames.  Beyond that I have no idea about these but if you can speak a bit of french they do have forums / discussion groups I think

You could ask on here to see if anyone can help…………………https://www.facebook.com/groups/156939028163370/

Landescape will do frame only but they’re not cheap, very good though

Definitly give JD Tandems a call, nice helpful folks.

This is lovely.. https://salsacycles.com/bikes/powderkeg/2016_powderkeg

And oh my god so are these   http://www.ventanausa.com/bikes/

Neither of which are any help if you are on a tight budget, be careful, we were on a tight budget and then spent close to 4.5K 🙂  Very happy with the end product though

Caution, may not fulfil your price requirements, but may give you some inspiration

Since this thread’s still going….

just bite the bullet and get a ventana. You’ll be enjoying the ride long after you’ve paid off the mortgage.

Evenin’ all,

Thanks for these latest tips. I hadn’t seen Landescape before, nice. I saw that Guy-Nicolai video this morning as it happens! Was showing my kids, trying to get them interested – more or less successful 😀

The Salsas and Ventanas I’ve seen on t’internet but not in the flesh. I really really really can’t spend that much though, at this stage at least. Missus is out of hospital now and the ‘cunning’ plan for the 8th bike in a household of 4 is to have (or pretend to have) most of the spare bits lying around, and just need a cheap frame to see if we like it. Knowing me, if we like it, I’ll happily, gleefully even, dump megabucks on a MkII.

I live in France as it happens but there is only one tandem team in my club. Two fairly light ladies so I haven’t asked to try their rig (old school Revs on 28 spoke wheels), but they’re pretty impressive and place well in the Roc Tandem at Fréjus each year.

Looking at that mega-cheapo frame, I was in contact with the shop today and he told me a 27.5*2.8″ tyre won’t fit… :(, so maybe a 2.6″. Actionsports.de with a DT Swiss 370 32h wheelset on DT FR570s might give me enough strength to c0ck around a bit?

Cheers,

Gaidong

Well, I’ve gone and ordered the EXS. Not exactly what I wanted, but at €380 delivered new via the shop of a friend of a friend it has to be worth a go to see how the family like tandeming. I’ll probably have to build it as a 27.5 for the time being, using wheels (DT E1700) and fork (X-Fusion Sweep) from my Bird Aeris. Final major choice, do I go for a rear Zee brake, as per my Bird or a pair of Magura MT5s? Frame arrives in a month…

On brakes – the biggest discs and the most heatproof.  Heat is the enemy of tandem brakes.  Our discs are lovely and blue

In the interests of thread economy I’ll try to recussitate this one instead of starting afresh. A few more questions, to which informed answers would be much appreciated!

1. The EXS geometry, and almost all the others, seems really conservative, 70+° head angle etc. Seeing as they’re already loooong, and I don’t know about low, does slack not apply so much to tandems? Angle adjust headset a stoopid idea?

<span style=”font-size: 0.8rem;”>2. On the same issue, the EXS frame recommends a 510mm axle to crown fork. I don’t have that. The fork options I have are 547mm (Fox Float 34 29er pedelec @ 140mm) and 551mm (X-Fusion Sweep HLR @ 160mm) a2c. I suppose the frame isn’t going to instantly snap and that it will slacken by a degree or two. Seeing as the pedelec fork is presemably built stronger, is there anything fundamentally dumb about using my DT E1700 27.5 front wheel in a 29er fork?</span>

3. Once I’ve done a few clearance tests using existing inappropriate (too lightweight) wheels I’ll probably get a custom set from actionsports.de on DT 370 hubs. I see plenty of info about using steel ‘standard’ freehub bodies but what about XD, can they take the tandem torque?

4. What is the minimum gear range I need for tandem? I suppose that’s quite personal but is there anything fundamentally different between solo and tandem gearing? What I have for the initial build is a non-crossover timing chain followed by a Shimano 11 speed transmission, 11-42t. If that’s not enough I could go Shimano 11-46, Sunrace 11-50, or full on Eagle on a new wheelset with XD hub (see above question).

OR I could go for a front derailleur… I had been hoping to avoid one as per recent fashion but more particularly due to the horrific tyre clearance on the EXS. However, if I can fit a band-on FD M677 and then get some stick on cable guides for the Sideswing routing might that work and give me max clearance?

5. I think that’s it for now but I’m sure I’ll be back with more naivety.

Thanks!

You’ll want a proper low gear even if you don’t use it on a single. 22Tx32T is common on the old triple style.

Hubs are disposable but the toughest ones can last quite well.

With tandems you really do need a good range of gears, I certainly wouldn’t go 1x, the side swing mechs work well and do give extra clearance between tyre and seat tube but I’m not sure how much extra tyre width they allow for – if you opt for non crossover chainset won’t you be restricted in chain ring choice?

32 spoke wheels are fairly risky on a tandem, I am planning to use one when I add front suspension to our tandem but the hub, rim and spokes are pretty beefy and we will only be tackling very gentle stuff to see how we like it.

If you are new to tandeming I wouldn’t go messing with geometry but the fork length shouldn’t be too much of a problem as you will find yourself playing around with fork settings to dial it in for yourself 🤔 let us know how you get on

I would not get obsessed over slack geometry on a tandem. You don’t want steering flop and as they are already long  stability us already good. You CV are not going to be doing hardcore  trails anyway!

Many thanks for these answers.

Agreed for leaving geometry alone, it was just that I have a spare angleset already.

Gearing, if 22×32 is 0.6875, the closest I can get initially is 30×42 (0.7143). That gives a pretty rubbish top speed but, tyre clearance allowing, I could get a 38/24 double on the inner and middle tabs (have spare rings), which’ll hopefully clear the 36t timing sprockets on the outer tabs, plus a spacer or three if needed. If not I suppose had have to reduce timing sprocket size and/or up to a 40/26 double.

Wheel-wise, as the EXS axle spacing is not tandem-specific (12×142) I’m not finding any high spoke count beefy options, and was trying to avoid getting really expensive. I had hoped that the FR570s, with their 140kg DH rating, would be enough for, principally, family cycling. The E1700s are only 28 hole, so I’ll have to go extra gentle on those…

I hope this is actually going to be fun!

Next!

Just how critical is this spoke count business? As stated previously, I can get a 32H DT DH 650b build for about €365 delivered and weighing about 2150 g, but some of you were sceptical about strength. I’ve looked what I can find in 36H, trying to avoid premium hubs like Hope. So with a base hubset of Zee M640 rear and XT M758 front and Sapim Strong spokes, I have options in Mavic (EX 630), Velocity (Cliffhanger) or Ryde (Andra 40).

Mav = 2767g/€240, Velocity = 2315g/€340 or Ryde = 2815g/€205.

The Velocity rims I can’t actually find anywhere and none of the weights include tape, valves etc, and I used a single spoke length (268mm) to get a ball park figure. Do I really need wheels that weigh almost 3000g? Plus tyres, gunk, cassette and discs hat’s a wheelset pushing 6kg !!!

If yes I’ll go with the Rydes I think. I have laced wheels before and then get the tensions checked in the LBS.

Cheers

Our road tandem has 40 spokes front and rear, our touring tandem has 48 spokes front and rear. Tandem wheels take a hell of a battering.

Wow, 48! OK, I guess I’ll have to go down this sort of route.

Wheels especially rear mget an absolute hammering on tandems – ours is 36 spoke rear 48 front but its a rohloff so a strong build.  I wouldn’t go below 36 spoke.  hubs also get a battering from impact and the torque- I would go for a tandem specific.  Finally for odffroad use low gears and you have to sit and spin – you cannot easily stand up and mash a high gear

Our tandem does get a battering too off road, we have another for road use and currently weighing up option for something splittable for air travel too, something that will do 700c and 650 for off-road.

We’ve run 32 on a rear rolhoff for over 10 years on our mtb tandem, if it’s built right and the rim is up to the job it’ll be fine, currently running 32 up front too, 50mm rim with 3.0 tyre on 35mm manitou forks with no issues as well, would prefer to run 36 hole but bit limited on choice when built. Highly recommend the Halo Vapour 35 rims if you can get them.

Main thing to do though is enjoy, every trail is different on the tandem compared to a single.

I really do appreciate all this advice. Spoke count is fully taken onboard and I’m searching like a good’un!

Bit worrying these spokes… 2.34 mm really isn’t anything to write home about.

36 front and 40 rear on our ECDM – get the best hubs you can afford. They take an absolute beasting.

Also, go for a good spread of gears, we run a 22/32/44 front and 11-36 back. You won’t be able to stand and grind and it will pick up speed scarily quickly!

Regarding hubs, my frame has option of 135 or 142 mm dropouts. I’ve gone for 142 but I do have a Rohloff hub I could re-purpose if I really wanted. It is 32h but I understand Rohloff can re-shell if paid enough. What I am really struggling to find (DT Swiss, Chris King, White Industries, HopeTech) is a tandem-rated 142*12 hub, and certainly no 142*12s in more than 36h, which is why I was thinking of a Zee (variable reviews but relatively cheap). Anything I’ve missed?

Ask JD tandems what they recommend?

We blew up two hob big un hubs and wrecked a shimano tandem hub with the mighty thighs of powa!  All go at the engagement / pawls – we put out more torque than a 3 l diesel engine

142 being relatively new and niche I don’t know if anyone has got around to making them – can the hope be converted?  Its a beefed up version of one of their hubs IIRC.

Another good source of unusual parts it MTB tandems in the states

I’d definitely repurpose the Rohloff, works so well on a tandem, shifting while stopped is a big plus on tandem and you dont notice the extra weight as a mass at the back axle as its so far behind as a captain. As I said before, it’ll be fine as a 32 with the right rim and build.

Also agree with the above, ask Alex at mtbtandems, he has more experience with what works and what breaks on mtb tandems than most.

I’ve heard back from JD and MTB tandems. JD recommended a Hope but MTB said to avoid all pawls, apart from Chris King and Onyx (both of which cost more than my new frame). Alex did suggest a DT 540 but it’d mean different dropouts for me. I’ll give it a think but I really don’t want/can’t spend a fortune on this first built and might just have to accept a freehub grunching on me to learn my lesson!

Cheers.

if you can run a hope hub I would think it OK – it is tandem specific and one of the modification it has is deeper cut pawls IIRC

I can see the Hope tandem hub but it’s 145mm and my frame is 142mm – https://www.thetandemshop.com/product/tandem-hope-rear-hub/

Dt Swiss hubs are rated for tandem use. I have a 540 here that’s been faultless.

Thanks CSW,

DT 540s are certainly on the list but they’re 135 dropouts. I can get those for my frame but the front hub, 5mm, is no good as my fork is forever thru-axle. DT 540s offer up to 40 spokes but the only rims I can see suitable for that are Velocity Cliffhangers, which are pricey, if you can find a place to sell them. Any other strong 40 hole 650b rims?

I’m not poo-pooing the DT option, indeed I may be forced down it, but it’s certainly on the higher cost part of the spectrum. (hence thinking Zees plus Andra 40s as a low cost trial).

Gaidong

I’m getting some great advice here, and I repeat, it is much appreciated. However, as my EXS frame is a bit of a compromise (mainly as it won’t take a decent volume 29er tyre, so I probably have to use a 27.5 rear) I’m less inclined to invest megabucks in a long-term wheelset. If we love tandeming then I’d buy or commission a frame that can take a full on meaty 29er tyre, and has proper tandem axle width so I’m not so constrained for hub choice.

With good rims and spokes 36h mtb hubs should be fine.  Beware freehubs failing tho so one with a strong feehub

Well it’s not going to be a Hope! Just spending a week on the Île d’Oléron (don’t go if you like MTB because FLAT) but noisy hubs the wife does not like 😀 .