mr bates vs the post office

It comes as 50 new potential victims of the scandal have contacted lawyers following an ITV drama about the issue.

☝️From the BBC story

All postoffices and current/previous subpostmasters were asked a couple years ago if they had had any losses suspected due to the horizon system and if they would be willing to bring a new case.

The rumor within the PO community is that over 8000 ! of the 11500 current postoffices replied.

We are deep enough in the thread for our story now I think.

We bought a shop and postoffice’ in 2015, sank life savings into it rather than a house, the shop was cheaper than a mortgage deposit as it was failing. Wife had been working there part time, I worked for a supermarket as a PM so knew a fair bit of how to run a shop, even though I was in the head office side.

2months later in we had a -£600 anomaly appear in horizon on the monthly stock take (no warning before on daily or weekly cashups). Took three days of discussion with the help desk and alot of stress trying to sort it, wife couldn’t work out what she had done wrong etc. Well £600 was around 2months earnings on po at the time so we said we’d pay it but cancel our contract and shut down the PO (as if it happened regularly we’d be making a loss) as we were with our rights at the time to cancel the contract. Within an hour post office ‘found the issue’, a glitch in the system and remotely sorted it out. This would have been 2016 so PO would have been well aware of the issues horizon has.

As we lost no money, and didn’t have to pay, we haven’t pursued – but I’ll bet every postoffice operating prior to 2014 would have had ‘issues’ and lost money.

The shop has been doing a fair bit better in recent years and we’ve doubled the postoffice trade. This year we’ve had to sink the rest of our savings into it though as inflation has hit hard. Next year will be interesting if stock prices continue to rise.

£600 was around 2months earnings on po at the time

It’s not exactly a money spinner is it?

Not a criticism of you, just a comment on how much responsibility it is for quite a small amount of money.

The point is that PO currently have11500 offices. What if they regularly have lots of small losses which need the subpost master to make up with their own cash, for example 11500×600=  £6.9million.
Even if that horizon anomaly happens once a year in every office between 1999 and 2014 that’s over £10billion.

Also there were over 15000 postoffices in 2005, so you can increase that figure significantly. I wonder how many shut down, and we’re happy to do so because of losses incurred by horizon – the scandal goes much deeper than the personal losses incurred by postmasters. The community and cultural loss hasn’t even been looked at.

As for 300 a month, like I said our po wasn’t performing at the time (would have been one of the worst cases I’d seen). We’ve significantly increased trade since, but yes it’s not a money spinner for us. We don’t get a wage, we work on comission which is pence per item not pounds.

The second most shocking thing after the blatant injustice is just how slowly justice has come and how slowly it has reached public consciousness. I have been seeing snippets about this in Private Eye for years as the challenges mounted. They catalogued the consequences – dreadful stories of destitution and suicides – too. But the wheels of justice have turned so slowly. I really hope that people are prosecuted for false testimony. It’s just incredible.
Anyway I reckon that if you want to know what the next big scandal is, I’d suggest subscribing to Private Eye to support their journalism because they were on it near the start.

Much as I feel I should apologise for having read this…. I stumbled across it this morning on Google News…. The Daily Fail. Noses in troughs etc.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-12932027/post-office-scandal-itv-drama-gilded-lives.html

It’s bizarre how it’s taken a tv drama to make the Met take an interest.

As above, it’s been clearly laid out in Private Eye for years that this was a deliberate act by PO to stiff it’s franchisees rather than get it’s own house in order.

They repeatedly perjured themselves to make sure innocent people went to jail rather than sort out Horizon.

Vennels should be in jail, not making a balls of another big directorship.

It’s bizarre how it’s taken a tv drama to make the Met take an interest.

You haven’t read the BBC article then?

“The investigation was launched in January 2020 following a referral from the DPP [Director of Public Prosecutions]”.

You haven’t read the BBC article then?

“The investigation was launched in January 2020 following a referral from the DPP [Director of Public Prosecutions]”.

Launched January 2020. Interviewed 2 people under caution. No arrests made.

Proceeding at pace I see.

They repeatedly perjured themselves

Angela Van Den Bogerd was stupid enough to do it on record. In the second trial she contradicted her recorded testimony in the first trial.

What if they regularly have lots of small losses which need the subpost master to make up with their own cash, for example 11500×600=  £6.9million.
Even if that horizon anomaly happens once a year in every office between 1999 and 2014 that’s over £10billion.

not to diminish the point you were making – but 11500*600*15 is not 10 Billion.

not to diminish the point you were making – but 11500*600*15 is not 10 Billion.

I added a decimal place – it’s over 1billion….

I added a decimal place – it’s over 1billion….

or two, its just over a tenth of a billion. 103,500,000

Yes, a lot of these prosecutions seemed to be motivated by obtaining Proceeds Of Crime orders against the sub-postmasters, so that they wouldn’t have to acknowledge a paper loss (whether illusory or not), which would either show up as a fundamental problem with their business (an automated double entry book keeping system that didn’t work) or as a significant hit to their bottom line and profitability. In many cases these errors were large enough to wipe out all the profits from many of the franchises that were affected.

Yes, a lot of these prosecutions seemed to be motivated by obtaining Proceeds Of Crime orders against the sub-postmasters,

And in one case a new subpostmaster came in, money started ‘going missing’ immediately, but the order came down that they were not to pursue the case because it might interfere with the PoC order against the previous incumbent who had already been convicted.

Honestly, there is already so much evidence of multiple conspiracy to pervert the course of justice offences that I am surprised that they are waiting until after the inquiry ends.

Someone who wasn’t mentioned in the drama is Rod Ismay, who wrote a false report that helped the Post Office to cover up the problems with Horizon.

He’s worth googling.

For those who are in North Derbyshire, you may be interested to hear that he now works as finance director for your local hospice, which is Ashfields in Chesterfield.

If only it wasn’t on ITVX, its so shit

Yup, can’t even find it on the ITVX app

Is he a member? @bellsandbikes

If only it wasn’t on ITVX, its so shit

I usually don’t like watching on commercial on demand channels as you can’t skip the ads. Did end up watching this on itvx and was pleasantly surprised. A couple of ads at the start then three very short breaks, basically just the stupid intro and outro clips. Easy to use on the built in app on the TV too. There’s not much I watch on itv but the experience with itvx was fine for me this time.

@houns I couldnt find it on my Smart TV, but did find it on my laptop, started watching it then signed into smart TV and there it was. Random

On ITVX use the calendar / schedule view and go back a few days (there’s usually a ‘back one day’ button). I couldn’t find it either.

Makes you think 🤔

Yup, can’t even find it on the ITVX app

I couldn’t until i signed in

ITVX is buggy through our BT box, but mostly it just seems to skip randomly through the ad breaks, so buggy in our favour 👍

One episode in. I know the story, having read various news and PE versions, etc. But I’m still raging.

I’ve also written in the past about the Bridlington guy’s problem – not related to this situation but getting no legal aid, and having to represent himself or somehow find 10’s or 100’s of thousands to pay your own fees. Which in the case of a criminal prosecution aren’t then paid back even if you are innocent, or if the case is ultimately dropped. We’re supposed to have the best justice in the world according to some – I’m not so sure.

bikesandboots
Full Member
Is he a member? @bellsandbikes

Appears to be the same guy , if the road.cc review is anything to go by.

I can see that Mr Ismay didn’t question what he was told, but the evidence he gave was in full, and he made little attempt to hide from the facts, seemingly accepting his role.

The evidence supplied by Lisa Jane Allen however makes her out to be a thoroughly disreputable individual, who doesnt care about the damage caused to the subpostmasters and spent the entire interview claiming she either couldn’t recall, or didnt actually know anything.
eg –
Q. To be frank, my client finds it extraordinary

10 that you do not remember attending her trial.

11 You were there for three days. You gave

12 evidence at her trial. You were there, as

13 Ms Price has said, when the jury asked

14 a question “What is Mrs Palmer supposed to do if

15 she doesn’t agree with the Horizon system?” You

16 and the Legal Team were floundering, you

17 couldn’t answer that question, and the jury

18 acquitted my client between 10 and 35 minutes.

19 Surely you must remember that?

20 A. I remember going to Southend Crown Court but

21 I don’t actually remember the trial.

She literally said ‘i dont recall’ to about every question put to her.

I can see that Mr Ismay didn’t question what he was told, but the evidence he gave was in full, and he made little attempt to hide from the facts, seemingly accepting his role.

He is at best a dimwit.

However as a trained auditor he should have known that an investigation to look at all the reasons why something should be true isn’t really an investigation at all.
There’s a reason that investigations start with a null hypothesis, ie you start by trying to disprove your theory, not the other way round.

We don’t get a wage, we work on comission which is pence per item not pounds.

Out of interest what do you get when people are just withdrawing cash from their pension for example?

I go to post office fairly often as always use Royal Mail because it is just easy but most people in front of me seem to be pulling cash out (which is fine as they use cash and have to get it from somewhere)

I wonder if Mr Ismay, or any of the other professionals have been reported to their professional bodies?  Seems likely that there were accountants and/or solicitors who have acted improperly. 

As utterly gripping as the drama was it seems to me to be a sad reflection on society that previous documentaries regarding this scandal failed to produce  outrage on anything like the same scale.  Also how come Fujitsu aren’t coming in for a much larger share of the blame ?

I see the petition to strip Vennels of her CBE is at 863,000. A couple of days and it will be above a million. I’m normally a bit skeptical about the various petitions that do the rounds, I’ll occasionally sign one more to make me feel better than with any expectation it will achieve anything. In this instance though, the sheer numbers have got to put pressure on her and the honours revocation committee.

A friend though pointed out to me that whilst she might actually be willing to give it up, to deflect a bit of flak she’s possibly been advised against it by lawyers. If there are any criminal charges to come in future, handing her bauble back might look like an admission of guilt.

I wonder if Mr Ismay, or any of the other professionals have been reported to their professional bodies?

probably not, or nothing will come of it.

I remember a few years ago in the mag for the accountancy body I’m in, they used to have a disciplinary section.
One month they had a guy that committed fraud and another was convicted for GBH. The fraudster got a slapped wrist and the other a lifetime ban.
Caused a stir as a lot of members felt the fraudster should have had a tougher punishment as the crime was completely at odds with the nature of his job.

As utterly gripping as the drama was it seems to me to be a sad reflection on society that previous documentaries regarding this scandal failed to produce  outrage on anything like the same scale. 

I didn’t see any previous documentaries, so it’s possibly a mix of lucky timing (post x-mas when people are sitting watching tv) and the process now being so far forward that the conclusion is obvious.  I followed some of the earlier press articles and they often included some degree of “balance” which when you combine with “well the pled guilty” sows some doubt on the veracity of the problem.  Then the coverage of the appeals I read was rather technical and quite impenetrable to general public – some of that on its own (eg the stuff around validity of the contract) could leave you the impression that this was a contactual dispute and money had gone missing but individual staff should not have been held liable.

Also how come Fujitsu aren’t coming in for a much larger share of the blame ?

well Fujitsu weren’t leading the investigations and prosecutions so no matter how bad Fujitsu were they don’t have the same culpability for the miscarriage of justice that the PO do.  It will be interesting to see what Fujitsu knew, and what they told the PO. 

I have signed the petition but have zero expectations of anything happening as a result. She is far enough up the food chain to be one of the untouchables

Also how come Fujitsu aren’t coming in for a much larger share of the blame ?

Also the Chairman is a Tory Donor, and the former CEO is married to the current Education Secretary.

Launched January 2020. Interviewed 2 people under caution. No arrests made.

Proceeding at pace I see.

I would imagine it has the potential to be incredibly complex. Fraud investigations always are, added to the sheer scale of this and obfuscation and technical smokescreens thrown up by the PO and Fujitsu.

It might be these things get done and dusted in short order on TV dramas, IRL I think they take a bit longer.

Out of interest what do you get when people are just withdrawing cash from their pension for example?

Cash withdrawals are one of our smallest renumeration – many shops will also have a standalone cash machine as you make more commission on them.

I would imagine it has the potential to be incredibly complex. Fraud investigations always are, added to the sheer scale of this and obfuscation and technical smokescreens thrown up by the PO and Fujitsu.

It’s not just fraud allegations – theres potentially around 6 or 7 different crimes that may/have been committed including attempting to perverse the Courts of Justice.

I’m not sure any more politicians can fit on this particular bandwagon now.

Potential legislation to quash subpostmaster convictions en masse, apparently. Government policy dictated not by 10 years of an obvious scandal during which they either sat mute or actively obstructed justice, but by the drama commissioning editor of ITV.

@kramer Ashgate Hospice?

I’m not sure any more politicians can fit on this particular bandwagon now.

Potential legislation to quash subpostmaster convictions en masse, apparently. Government policy dictated not by 10 years of an obvious scandal during which they either sat mute or actively obstructed justice, but by the drama commissioning editor of ITV.

it’s quite incredible really.  All that money on a half complete public inquiry when all they needed was a script writer to crystallise the issues for them!