mr bates vs the post office

Quite the opposite – had the transactions been in physical tokens (cash), this could never have happened.

Not really since the problem was the recording and transmission of the transactions (generally double counting when a transaction seemed to fail and hence was resent) not the means in which it was transacted. If anything cash would be worse since other methods would, in theory, be able to be cross checked.

Not so for the PO, they had hundreds of such cases going on without any threat of this additional scrutiny of their evidence and what was being disclosed to the defence.

Yes I know. However its not unique to the Post Office and it is something which is now being increasingly used by other companies due to the tories destruction of the justice system.
Best thing is win or lose so long as they can demonstrate minimal standards they can bill the taxpayer for it.
Happy thought eh?

Just finished watching this . I don’t think I’ve ever shouted and sworn so much at the telly .When this first started I was a Postie and watched in disbelief as this gathered pace . I’m hoping that this series finally shines a light on a very unsavoury period of time . Paula Vennels could do the right thing and hand back her CBE then her and her co conspirators should be held to account for their collective part I ruining so many lives , as a priest you’d think knowing right from wrong would be her cornerstone.😡We also need the government to get their asses in gear and finally do the right thing for once .

monkeyboyjc
Full Member
Exactly – it’s a prime example for cash.

Well, no, the issue is/was the software was (as far as the sub postmasters were concerned) producing wrong numbers that didn’t match the cash they had to hand. Doesn’t matter if you took £1000 or £10,000 in a day if it’s not your money and the system says you should have £1100/£10100.

vennells clearly has no intention of handing back her thoroughly undeserved cbe so it should be removed.
What about bonuses paid to her and other ‘executives’?
I doubt they can be reclaimed but it would be appropriate for government and PO to say they were unmerited.
The numerous memory failures in both this and the Covid enquiry should be causing concern in the medical fraternity; the failures appear to be limited to senior politicians and business ‘executives’.
Very puzzling.
If memory failures occurred with the same frequency in civil and criminal cases I’m sure that magistrates and judges would be ‘understanding’.

I’ve been aware of this since it was first raised on radio 4 (before the Today Program snippet that was part of the programme), but the ITV drama brings it into sharp relief.

You may be interested in this petition calling for Paula Vemmells to be stripped of her CBE:

https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/strip-paula-vennells-of-her-cbe

Well, no, the issue is/was the software was (as far as the sub postmasters were concerned) producing wrong numbers that didn’t match the cash they had to hand.

So count the cash, rather than relying on the computer.

It wasnt just cash, and they couldn’t just count it as they had no access to their electronic ledger. So when the software fiddled it they couldn’t check. Thats the whole point. Alan Bates was ex-IT so realised it was flawed.Fujitsu was a supplier and a few hundred yards from where I worked. Dodgy as ****. Also I hope Ed Davey, Jo Swinson & the Liberals get roasted for this as they were Post Office ministers at the time when in coalition with Crooked-Daves government and they dismissed it. 

Did anybody notice Conservative MP for Stratford Upon Avon, Nadim Zahawi, playing himself in the mediation enquiry scene ?

That’s him , I couldn’t place his name.

@tillydog – that was exactly the problem, they were counting the cash, but the computer was telling them something different.

Well, no, the issue is/was the software was (as far as the sub postmasters were concerned) producing wrong numbers that didn’t match the cash they had to hand. Doesn’t matter if you took £1000 or £10,000 in a day if it’s not your money and the system says you should have £1100/£10100.

A cash audit showed no wrong doing…. In fact, this is why no wrong doing could be found in the initial investigation to Jo Hamilton, it’s just that PO only looked at the digital figures and decided to prosecute based on digital figures only, not stock delivery and stock take (the actual cash and stock held in the branch). They disregarded the cash deliveries completely.
I run a post office, cash goes in, cash goes out we know how much cash we have on hand at all times we don’t have control of the digital side. It was the digital side the horizon introduced that was in the wrong not the cash.

It wasnt just cash, and they couldn’t just count it as they had no access to their electronic ledger.

That was only after they were audited and suspended. We have access to transaction logs, which is how Mr bates flagged his issue with horizon – some transactions in his case we being doubled and logged twice. He went through every daily transaction and could reverse the duplicates. He still ended up with a £1200 deficit which PO blamed him for.

We as sub postmasters have to do weekly and monthly audits on Wednesdays. Count all the cash and stock and check it matched the system – this is when it flags a cash discrepancy. In Jo Hamilton’s case she phoned the help line to resolve it and the fix doubled her digital discrepancy, it the doubled it again every week when ever she did a weekly or monthly audit but she manually lied to the  system and said she was holding the cash (hence being convicted of false accounting). At this point she still had access to the digital log of cash in and cash out.

I was a regular customer of Noel Thomas from Anglesey between 2003 and 2005 and saw every day how unreliable the Horizon computer system was. When I heard a few years later that he had been sent to prison I was appalled and never doubted that he was innocent. The senior managers of Post Office and Fujitsu should be prosecuted for perverting the course of justice, and senior politicians from the three main parties should be publicly shamed for turning a blind eye while in a rush to privatise the Post Office. The face that these people are still waiting for compensation should be a national scandal.

The face that these people are still waiting for compensation should be a national scandal.

I’m pretty sure that most folks already think its a national scandal.

They are loads of things the government should be doing and should be a national scandal but, you know, stop those boats.

This is an interesting read for those interested in the technicalities:

What went wrong with Horizon: learning from the Post Office Trial

For anybody wondering whether the programme is worth a watch, I would give you a resounding YES!

Not the real issue I know, but what about the house they have Mr Bates living in? Its amazing. It looks pretty much like my perfect house.

Yeah we thought that – when they were looking at houses sub 120k in ep1 saying “what are we gonna do? We can afford these!” And end up in a bloomin nice house in Snowdonia – if we lost our life savings and postoffice now, no chance I could afford to buy any house….

@tillydog I’ve just read that article (I’ll hopefully watch the video later), and it amazes me the issues with logging, and that Fujitsu had full access with no logging of what they done while logged into accounts.

I can only hope that the ongoing public enquiry reveals who knew what and when. Going by what was written in that article, it appears the Post Office were initially unaware of what Fujitsu were doing, but at some point somebody should have been questioning what was happening.

The question I have, is why aren’t all the convictions in this time period being quashed. A fair few of them are still being allowed to stand, when it seems patently obvious to me that short of catching a Sub Post-master walking out of the Post Office with a bag of money marked “swag” all other convictions are inherently unsafe.

As the legal system had a large part to play in these miscarriages of justice, I’m not sure the normal appeals process is the correct procedure here.

And end up in a bloomin nice house in Snowdonia –

The real Alan was on the radio on New Years Day, lovely chap. Talked about refusing an OBE bevause it was farcical that the CEO woman had received one.

Anyway, he was asked if the TV show was accurate and he said yes, except the house they moved to wasn’t a twee cottage.

with regard to filming locations, pretty sure that last night Mr Bates was having a pint in Beddgelert outside the Saracens Head

The question I have, is why aren’t all the convictions in this time period being quashed.

Many pleaded guilty out of terror and a bid to escape prison. They literally felt they had no other option because Horizon was deemed infallible. This is a tough hurdle to overcome in terms of getting the verdict overturned. I’m hoping one of the things that comes out of the inquiry is evidence of the sustained pressure and intimidation employed by Post Office Ltd to coerce these poor people into admitting it.

But yes, you’d have thought that the government should be moving to assist anyone who has been convicted on the basis of Horizon data, regardless of whether they pleaded guilty or not. Having said that, their arms-length approach to the Post Office means that even compensation hasn’t been forthcoming in those who have had their convictions quashed.

Surely, a coerced guilty plea secured through presentation of evidence susequently considered baseless (and proven to be the basis of lies) means the conviction was also baseless?

Surely, a coerced guilty plea secured through presentation of evidence susequently considered baseless (and proven to be the basis of lies) means the conviction was also baseless?

I’m not sure there’s even a mechanism to rescind a guilty plea?

“I’m not sure there’s even a mechanism to rescind a guilty plea?”

There is. Some postmasters have been cleared even though they pled guilty.

“In Hamilton & Ors v Post Office Limited [2021] EWCA Crim 577, the Court Appeal quashed the dishonesty convictions of many Sub-Post Masters, many of whom had pleaded guilty. There were significant disclosure failings in this case in that the defendants were not informed by the Post Office of known issues relating to the reliabity of the ‘Horizon’ computer system, when data from that very system was relied upon as robust and reliable evidence in the Post Office prosecution cases.This case falls within the the Category 2 unlawfulness above.”

https://www.defence-barrister.co.uk/pleading-guilty-part-4

It was interesting that this topic came up at work today in a discussion with some of our newer leaders as an example of how culture can still be poor even when you think you’ve got a ‘diverse’ leadership team. The mistreatment of staff and those that leaders have a duty of care towards isn’t resumed to a single demographic but we still buy into divisive arguments. See also Patel and Bravermen as further examples of how some individuals who ultimately give zero **** about the minions.

Was interesting to listen in, and fair play to them for using this to pick apart their own team culture.

See also Patel and Bravermen as further examples of how some individuals who ultimately give zero **** about the minions.

Psychopathy isn’t an exclusively male trait.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/victorlipman/2013/04/25/the-disturbing-link-between-psychopathy-and-leadership/

Anyway, the petition to strip Paula Vennells of her CBE that was started 3 years ago had fewer than 5000 signatures as of two days ago. This evening, it passed a quarter of a million and is still rising rapidly. The power of television.

The mistreatment of staff and those that leaders have a duty of care towards isn’t resumed to a single demographic but we still buy into divisive arguments

I am not aware of that argument generally being made vs the one that generally speaking a more diverse team can better represent the overall company. It depends though on whether the company culture is actually diverse or if it does have a bias in it against certain groups. If the latter then those members of those groups who have got embedded are likely to be overcompensating.
The classic example is “queen bee syndrome” although like most social science the evidence is mixed and debated.

Anyone who’s been to the Nant Francon valley will prob have a vague idea of where Alan’s TV house is…as you pass the Glyders on your left and Llyn Ogwen on the right, the road turns right, heading down into Bethesda just between Pen y Ole Wen on the right and Y Gran on the left…the house will be on the LH of the valley within 1/2 mile of that turn..I Googled it a few days ago. There are plenty of clues in the programme but Hayley Cropper painting outside the house was the clincher!

I had a customer caught up in it. Went to prison and ended up leaving the country with her American husband as she got hounded out of the village.

Really nice couple with an fantastic business just destroyed.

Absolute shit show.

Of course in Scotland there are no private prosecutions so any Post Office prosecutions had to be done via reporting them to the PF. Seems the Horizon issues were known at least a decade ago with Scottish cases being dropped.

They still seem to have got a lot of dubious convictions through prior to that just like elsewhere in the UK.
2013 was the turning point year with the reporting from computer weekly and, I think by that time, Private Eye helping get the attention of MPs and various other people and any SPOs being dragged to court being able to produce a shedton of evidence that Horizon was anything but always right.

It was only in September last year that the first case got overturned in Scotland.

The question I have, is why aren’t all the convictions in this time period being quashed.

it would require a change in the law to simply quash them all automatically, so they go through the formal process of   Appeal.

A fair few of them are still being allowed to stand, when it seems patently obvious to me that short of catching a Sub Post-master walking out of the Post Office with a bag of money marked “swag” all other convictions are inherently unsafe.

they are being allowed to stand in the sense that the appeal court has upheld them as sound convictions or that they just haven’t made it to court yet (or were some not being represented by the same lawyers – who have made a mess of it?) ?  Some people may have decided not to ask the offences to be referred to the appeal court, or they may still be in the system – usually appeals with a similar “issue” are lumped together but that doesn’t mean all the Horizon cases – just all the cases which used the same specific tactics, or the same point of law or very similar cases evidentially etc.  if you think that’s too slow –  finding for the courts comes from government!

As the legal system had a large part to play in these miscarriages of justice, I’m not sure the normal appeals process is the correct procedure here.

the only alternative is for the government to change the law – that’s a radical move just because it’s high profile – the correct process does seem to be the appeal court, and it seems to be largely effective but very, very slow.  An important point is that it took very expensive lawyers spotting a way to make a big payout for anyone to really understand the legal deficiencies in the cases (eg. The basic question of contract law; the difference between liable for all losses and liable for losses which were your fault (a point perhaps too subtle for the programme but I believe was a key point of some cases – because the PO didn’t seem to know it’s own rules and wrote letters misleading people) as well as issues of fairness because a suspended manager had no way to access data to support their defence.   Those were all issues that a well funded, competent defence lawyer could have brought out in the original trials.  Next time someone tells you legal aid is a gravy train – remember any of us could find ourselves wrongly accused, out a job and desperate.  You want the best representation.  The purpose of defence lawyers is not to get the guilty off as everyone assumes, it’s to stop the state taking piss in prosecutions.  A right to a fair trial is a key part of the Human Rights Act that some people are quite keen to repeal – no worries there because the powers of the state would never do anything to harm legitimate citizens eh?

Oh my…

Scoop: Public inquiry into the Post Office scandal has obtained covert recordings of senior staff including Paula Vennells.

Approx 80 tapes could be “damning”, an inquiry source tells me.

Full story here as CBE debate rages #MrBatesVsThePostOffice ??https://t.co/rTs64VdCMp

— Tom Witherow (@TomWitherow) January 4, 2024

Please, please, please let this be true…

To cap this off yesterday Fujitsu were awarded another contract from DEFRA worth £19m! https://www.theregister.com/2024/01/04/fujitsu_flood_contract_extension/ The comments are worth a read where one author alleges that they Fujitsu have stolen around £800m of pension benefits from those deador close to death and not refunded the money to us.

Why are we giving more money to this fraudulent company?

Thankfully post office and Fujitsu parted ways a few years ago. We’ve a new system replacing Horizon over the next couple of years – not sure who the partner company is though.

Just finished watching this.

The only word for it is disgusting.

Throwing innocent people under the bus in order to protect a company’s reputation.  Its corporate malfeasance at its worse

Throwing innocent people under the bus in order to protect a company’s reputation.

Literally, in the case of the Martin Griffiths…😞

I don’t think this has been picked up yet, apologies if it has –

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-67899189

hopefully that will link to the news yesterday that the police are investigating.